Tuesday, June 23, 2009

Waffle at BJP National Executive meeting


[Update at the end]

The conventional assessment of the BJP National Executive meeting (June 20-21) is that its primary purpose of providing members with an opportunity to let off post-election steam has been achieved. This will put an end to trading of charges and levelling of allegations. It will be back to business as usual.

It is also being claimed (and I endorse this partially) that those who have been cavilling against the party’s ideology and its core idea, Hindutva, have been silenced. Ideology shall continue to enjoy primacy and Hindutva shall remain the guiding force.

Third, niggling doubts about the leadership issue have been put to rest. The party has asserted the principle of ‘democratic centralism’ and this is the way it shall be. Never mind what the party constitution says about electing leaders from bottom up.

My assessment differs on all these counts and more.

The unabashed finger-pointing that was witnessed marks a departure from the past when sobriety was the norm during National Executive meetings. Little or no purpose has been served by the mutual recrimination that marked the discussions till Sunderlal Patwa intervened with an emotional speech.

Patwa’s intervention may have forced an end to the ugly trading of charges, including between Shahnawaz Hussein and Maneka Gandhi, and diverted attention from the points raised by Arun Shourie, but the internecine war is by no means over. At best it is tactical retreat, not even temporary truce.

It is a pity that two ‘leaders’, whom LK Advani referred to as “two eminent Muslim colleagues of ours”, were allowed to adopt an abrasive tone and level all kinds of charges while others were disallowed to raise issues that are much more fundamental for the party’s well-being.

But I guess it is useful to promote the fiction that the BJP lost the election because of what Varun Gandhi said (or did not say) in Pilibhit. That way, the real reasons shall remain swept under the carpet.

[Sushil Modi in his intervention mentioned that Hindutva upsets the JD(U) and could strain the BJP-JD(U) alliance in Bihar. That’s as unconvincing as Naveen Patnaik’s claim that he parted company with the BJP because of the violence in Kandhamal. If Nitish Kumar is convinced that he can win a majority on his own he will part company with the BJP: Nobody likes to share power. A section of the JD(U) feels that an alliance with the Congress makes better sense because it would fetch political returns at the Centre here and now.]

Here is a fact that should have been the subject of serious discussion but was ignored by the National Executive: Of the sitting MPs in the 14th Lok Sabha who contested this year’s election, only 37 have been re-elected. In 2004, nearly a hundred sitting MPs of the BJP lost the election.

It would be absurd to suggest that barring 37 sitting MPs the remaining lost the 2009 election because of Varun Gandhi’s alleged inflammatory comments or a harsh and narrow interpretation of Hindutva. I don’t think there is any evidence to suggest that Hindutva was even mentioned during their campaign, leave alone giving it a sinister twist.

The reasons why such a large number of sitting MPs lost are four-fold:

. Poor track record of the individuals;
. Poor organisational back-up;
. Poor campaigning at the constituency level; and,
. Poor selection of candidates.


The BJP obviously does not want to discuss these issues as that would result in quite a few red faces at the high table. Patwa has saved them from acute embarrassment.

Second, there is no clarity as yet on either ideology or Hindutva.

Both LK Advani and Rajnath Singh stressed on the inclusiveness of Hindutva and how it militates against bigotry and fanaticism. That’s a nice thought. But what does it stand for?

. LK Advani said “BJP’s understanding of Hindutva is fully in accord with the unanimous judgement given by the 3-Judge Bench of the Supreme Court on December 11, 1995.”

. Rajnath Singh said “Hindutva … has a sense of respect and a place for everyone and it is a concept of co-existence. It is this cultural consciousness which has made Hindutva so benevolent and flexible.”

. The Political Resolution moved and drafted by Ravi Shankar Prasad said, “Hinduism or Hindutva is not to be understood or construed narrowly confined only to religious practices or expressed in extreme forms. It is indeed related to the culture and ethos of the people of the India, depicting the way of life of the Indian people.”

The Indian people’s “way of life” has nothing to do with politics or political campaigns to secure state power. If Hindutva is only what the Supreme Court thinks it is, then it should not be the political creed of any party, least of all the BJP.

The political resolution bizarrely equates Hinduism with Hindutva. This was best avoided. Hinduism is about faith, which is by definition narrow and exclusive. Hindutva is about political mobilisation, which has to be inclusive and all-embracing.

The party should have said:

Hindutva is rooted in India’s cultural and civilisational ethos, of which faith (Hinduism, Islam or Christianity) is only one inter-changeable component; it is representative of India’s identity as an ancient nation and a modern nation state; it links India’s past with its present and mirrors its aspirations for a better future.

It defines Indianness or Bharatiyata. It is the cornerstone of cultural nationalism, the BJP's USP.

It is rooted in egalitarianism, tolerance and compassion. It celebrates democracy. It harmonises differences. It rests on the principle of justice to all, appeasement of none.


Some may perceive merit in waffle we heard at the National Executive meeting, but it will not help remove the confusion that prevails at all levels. The party needs to enunciate Hindutva for our times. I wonder when the BJP’s ‘Blair moment’ will come.

The BJP would have done itself some good had it used this National Executive meeting to also clarify a related point: Core issues of the party are not core elements of Hindutva, they are at best tangentially linked.

Abrogation of Article 370 is to do with integration of the States and Centre-State relations. Retaining Article 370 keeps open the issue of Jammu & Kashmir’s full and final integration with the Union of India and allows others to refer to it as ‘disputed territory’. It also accords to Jammu & Kashmir a special status that is denied to the other States of the Union. None of these is a key component of Hindutva.

Article 44 of the Constitution states: "The state shall endeavour to secure for citizens a uniform civil code.” This is primarily meant to uphold the republican principles of equality for all, irrespective of gender, religion and caste. It is also aimed at modernising Indian society by ridding it of regressive personal laws. Where does the demand for Uniform Civil Code fit into the concept of Hindutva?

By not separating these two core issues from the core of its ideology, the BJP has failed to put an end to the campaign of calumny by the ‘secular’ political establishment and the ill-informed sections of media. More importantly, it has missed an opportunity to remove misconception in the minds of its cadre.

Advani has talked about organisational weaknesses and the need to address them as well as expand the party’s base in States where it is almost non-existent. The “train compartment” mentality he has referred to is extremely relevant. Hopefully it applies to all in the higher echelons of the party.

As for strengthening the organisation and strategise for the next 20 years, it will require a mindset change across the board at the top: The needless craving for allies and alliances has to be replaced by determination and a can-do spirit.

Unfortunately, those who speak about it are also strong votaries of subjugating State units of the party to allies so that local leaders don’t grow in stature and want a place inside the “train compartment”.

A last point: States representatives at the meeting were unanimous and unambiguous in their praise for Narendra Modi. Every where he visited during the campaign, they said, the cadre were galvanised and supporters enthused. Nothing more need be said.

UPDATE 24/06/09:

. This whole differentiation of 'moderate', 'soft' and 'hard' Hindutva makes little sense. Hindtuva needs to be seen as a concept, an idea, the core of the party's belief and the base of its political positioning. The moment it begins to label Hindutva, it suggests a certain discomfort with everything that this idea stands for.

. There are some in the party who believe that to be one with 'Young India' they must ape the worst trait that manifests itself in urban India among those who feel embarrassed about being an Indian and describe themselves as 'global citizens', which is no more than an imaginary identity as opposed to an identity rooted in the soil of your motherland. Hence, the effort to disown and distance yourself from Hindutva.

. Young India, we must note, lives not only in cities but in villages and district towns. That Young India is not yet a deracinated lot.

. The BJP will (hopefully) never come to resemble a Congress dominated by beautiful people who adorn Page 3 and mesmerise the chattering classes.

. The 'aspirations' that are often referred to in connection with issues the BJP should address to widen its support base cannot exclude Hindu aspirations, especially the aspiration to be treated with honour and dignity in Hindu majority India. This is not about crude majoritarianism but the majority's right not to be treated shabbily and with contempt.

. My own view is that Muslims will never vote (or vote substantially) for the BJP. The Bharatiya Jana Sangh was shunned by the Muslims as a 'Hindu' party (Varun Gandhi wasn't born then); the BJP was and continues to be shunned as a 'Hindu party'. The BJP can stand on its head and do a double somersault and a twist-and-turn. There will be applause but no votes. So, let those in the BJP who keep on plugging the secular/Muslim line not waste their breath. Muslims will either consolidate behind the Congress (if the party is seen to be able to practice aggressive appeasement, eg, communal job and education quotas) or they will vote tactically to defeat the BJP. Muslims are believed to be the decisive factor in 54 Lok Sabha constituencies; by 2014, this number will further increase. The mullah and the masjid will ensure the breach is never bridged, not even if Vande Mataram is replaced with qawaali.

. Similarly, the BJP should get rid of its diffidence for being seen as a 'Right-wing party'. Or else it should either disband of fashion itself as a clone of the Congress, a 'B' team, so to say. There is no halfway house on this front. To be 'Right' does not mean to be wrong. Nor is conservative or 'Right-wing' politics 'unenlightened'.

. Meanwhile, in the context of short-sighted political alliances, the BJP should ponder over what it has lost by striking an alliance with the Gorkha Jana Mukti Morcha in Darjeeling district of West Bengal. What it has gained is one Lok Sabha seat, limited to this election.

These are some stray thoughts I felt I should share with you after going through my notes on the National Executive.

125 comments:

offstumped said...

Agree with you on the need for BJP's "Blair moment".

Your definition of Hindutva is good for an opening line and for providing an all encompassing abstraction.

The problem of ideology is of coherence in Governance and how it guides in making policy choices when in and out of power.

You have rightly pointed out why UCC, 370 are federal, national, secular liberal issues and nothing to do with Hindutva.

This clarity on above and beyond to other areas of socio-economic relevance is necessary to make the ideology practical, usable and useful.

This also goes to the heart of your pose to the National Executive, why did so many MPs lose ?

Did all of these MPs have this coherence, did they all believe in it, did they practise in their parliamentary and constituency interventions, were the consistent or opportunistic, did they exude credibility and confidence.

For in the final analysis all anti-incumbency boils down to loss of credibility on account of opportunism which invariably goes back to deviations from ideology without a convincing rationale.

But for wholesome praise of Modi looks like the NE achieved little by way of rejuvenation.

The speed with which the party acted against BC Khanduri and the manner in which it acted doesnt inspire confidence.

Bhavananda said...

The information you shared, needless to say, is very helpful for the sundry BJP workers who are left alone, sulking in a corner after the humiliating defeat.

One thing I have repeatedly failed to understand from all these meetings, political rhetoric is the position of Modi. Can you shed some light on his future? There's a near unanimity that he is the ONLY one who can unite the party. Then why isn't LKA not passing over the batton to Modi after talking of "train compartment" mentality?? Is he at all planning to do this? More than any else, this is the number one question in almost all BJP workers I know - everything else can wait!! Can yous shed some light on this??

Arjun said...

Food for thought for Modiphiles:

1999 Lok Sabha elections: BJP 20 seats

2004 Lok Sabha: BJP 14

2009 Lok Sabha: BJP 15

Modi has had no impact on the fortunes of the BJP in the lok sabha elections wrt Gujarat.

Vajpayee was a leader of stature. He could straddle the various ideological divides within the BJP and kept it focused as a political entity. There is nobody in the BJP who is yet of the stature and pre-eminence to fill the void left by Vajpayee. This is the tragedy of the BJP. Organizational improvements, better candidates, putting ideology into practice will all be possible only after the BJP finds/elects a widely respected leader.

Until that happens, it does not matter who says what. The BJP will meander along aimlessly.

Please don't keep downplaying the comments and impact of Varun Gandhi. It does not matter how many seats were won or lost because of him. The fact is that the BJP came across as a party of street urchins because of this idiot.

Finally, as in a boxing match, I suggest the BJP lie down and stay down for a while. Relax and let the referee count till 8 before getting back on its feet.

offstumped said...

Arjun - It is myopic to look at Modi from the narrow prism of electoral outcomes. Vajpayee's acceptability was in no measure diminished in 2004, there was no Varun Gandhi in 2004 and what is worse if you go back and read news in the 6 months leading up to 2004 election Modi and Gujarat 2002 were a faint echo.

The lesson from 2004 and now in 2009 is BJP failed to break new ground and natural attrition in traditional consistuencies is bound to hurt.

Modi or no Modi, that is the bigger problem to solve.

Modi can be a vehicle for getting the organisation focused on that problem of expansion with a tough no-nonsense approach and a results/goal oriented unrelenting uncompromising mission.

The risk exists that vehicle can get derailed by media bias and opportunists using that bias to their advantage.

Hence the need to renounce power so the calculus of elections and sharing of spoils of power doesnt come in the way of that mission.

Arun said...

Déjà vu! This party made very similar noises after the defeat in 2004. These guys ignore 164 Lok Sabha seats in the coastal states and the entire Dalit vote and want to go after Muslim vote.

I am more convinced than ever that, in the next decade, BJP will not better its performance in the 5 coastal states. Only a new party can gain any foothold in those states.

Arjun said...

Offstumped: I agree with your following comment:

"Modi can be a vehicle for getting the organisation focused on that problem of expansion with a tough no-nonsense approach and a results/goal oriented unrelenting uncompromising mission."

I also agree that if Modi is chosen for this role then the BJP MUST renounce power for the time being. Long term gains from the work Modi will do is obvious.

The problem I have with Kanchan's posts is that he never openly acknowledges the short term damage to BJP's electoral prospects that Modi's leadership is likely to do precisely because of the opportunists that you refer to.

An explanation will help.

offstumped said...

Arjun - Why do you need that ?

It is a self defeating line of thought it is mere speculation not rooted in hard facts and only reinforces a template being peddled by the media.

This is something that has to be done only by Modi and Modi alone to have credibility.

zoomindianmedia said...

Kanchanda

Very good effort at capturing the ground issues; much better than various dilettante efforts.

Some comments:

1. What has not come out is number of sitting MPs that contested so that we know the exact strike rate.

2. Who were eventually RESPONSIBLE for the candidate selection - AJ or RS or State CMs. That is not clear. Public articulation on this will put pressure on the decision owners and their mistakes.

3. On Hindutva, influential sections of BJP, it seems want to keep the definition fuzzy/undermine it. Such thinking is not going to help matters. Ravi Shankar Prasad's definition is half cooked. Such motherhood statements would not help anyone least of all the BJP. Your effort to define Hindutva for the BJP is a far better attempt. And is a well deserved rap over the knuckles of those who wanted a "blair moment" on non-Hindutva terms.

4. Advani coterie's efforts clearly seem to be consolidating BJP gains of 1990s. (I am using the word coterie in the factual rather negative sense that the word carries). It has not show the vision to break new ground. Such conservative thinking is the reason why in an expanding market BJP voter strength has not grown both in quantitative and percentage terms. Buck eventually stops with the leadership. Advani/Rajnath/AJ have not delivered. They and their coterie members need to pay a price at least to the extent of preventing recurrence of mistakes. (Just bcoz Jaswant who lost 1999 elections and still enjoyed cabinet positions is raising this point on performance/reward, does not invalidate the merit of the proposal)

5. Your suggestion to separate out UCC and Article 370 from Hindutva has merit. BJP does not need to check this with JD(U). If BJP has the strength on ground, the seats, and transferability of its voter base, stronger than minority votebank of the ally, alliances will happen. If they do not, alliances will never be steady.

6. Modi is who a typical BJP voter associates with. I have known of known congress supporters who shifted to BJP on account of Modi. BJP voter deserves a serious hearing rather than allies/enemies whose agenda would not match BJP's. Commitment to defend its core base is an issue on which BJP has been found wanting. Chasing mirages has not helped anyone.

7. BJP will need to break new ground - there is no short cut. Social Engineering of the Govindacharya variety need to be planned and executed in conjunction with
(i) charismatic leadership (despite propoganda congis dont have it) and

(ii) Ideological Coherence (nationalism, commitment to provide primacy to native Indian beliefs, fostering unity among its adherence) /Big ideas (local governance, harmonious local community relations to expand economic pie, urban renewal, superior enforcement of rule of law).

Battle ground state of UP will need to be regained.

To summarize BJP if it has to get out of its morass of the past decade, will need following:

a. Coherent definition of Hindutva and the big ideas.
b. Social Engineering to expand its voter base on economic and social criteria.
c. Inspiring leadership of a proven performer like Modi who can bring in the incremental votes (something that Advani 2009 could not achieve)

Above three conditions in conjunction are necessary. A two legged or a one legged seat will never be stable.

More detailed perspective is available at

http://zoomindianmedia.wordpress.com/2009/05/17/election-2009-analysis/

Anonymous said...

Whether the mud-slinging in the BJP has stopped or not, the battle between the Usual suspects and Agent provocateur continues.Both want to interpret the way that suits them.

But the good thing is that all in BJP (champions & critics of Hindutva agree on one thing that Namo is the future.

BJP_supporter said...

Arjun, your figure from lok sabha elections in gujarat present only a part of the scenario.

The performance of BJP in Gujarat has been swinging with a predictable pattern between assembly and parliament elections.

- 2002 assembly election (10% vote share lead for BJP, bigger turnout)
- 2004 parliament election (4% vote share lead for BJP, only 45% turnout)
- 2007 assembly election (10% vote share lead for BJP, close to 60% turnout)
- 2009 parliament election (4% vote share lead for BJP, 50% turnout)

Assembly elections - higher turnout, BJP gets 10% vote share lead. In a two party fight, 10% lead is a killer.

Parliament elections - lower turnout.

To me, it shows there is a big section of Gujarat that only votes for Modi. In parliament elections, there is no Modi, so they do not go to vote.

Or you would have to blame it on the weather - parliament elections in summer. That isn't very convincing.

On the other hand, there are BJP workers from Kanyakumari to Maharashtra that are enthused by Modi the campaigner.

Offstumped, to such BJP workers, I am not sure that Modi-the-renouncer will appeal. It does not, to a supporter like me. Fake sacrifices when still retaining levers of power may appeal to another class of political workers, and that is exactly the point. We are not them (despite attempts at many quarters, including the other blog, to make us exactly that).

What do you think?

kp11 said...

If Varun Gandhi was so wrong, how did he win his seat?

kp11 said...

Varun Gandhi and Modi should quit their hardline stances. That way they will lose their seat and state respectively, but atleast BJP will win seats in other places. Meaning other BJP leaders are so useless that the agenda in their area is decided by Modi and Varin Gandhi. Thw world will love them if they lose their election. So they must become lambs. Modi must firnly believe that when he loses the election the whole media and assrted hindu apologists will never shout "MODI BRAND OF COMMUNAL POLITICS REJECTED BY ELECTORATE" and "VARUN GANDHI'S POLITICAL CAREER FINISHED BECAUSE OF HATE SPEECH AGAINST MUSLIMS". Instead the media will fall on their feet

offstumped said...

To BJP_Supporter in response to your question.

It is like saying people of India would not have joined Gandhi in his Satyagraha unless they were assured Gandhi would become Prime Minister post Independence.

If you truly believe he is a Karma Yogi you will follow him no matter what.

If your faith in him is contingent only upon him wielding Power then I think the problem has less to do with him and more to do with your faith in him.

Think about it.

Swabhimaan said...

Kanchan ...you rock!

BJP_supporter said...

Offstumped, I thought about it, and I do not think I need another Gandhi. IMHO, India does not either.

I think we are discussing BJP, a political party in a democratic politics with a constitution and institutions of governance, including the highest political office - the PM. I dont understand the need for a Karma Yogi.

I am fairly uncomfortable with grand sentences like 'people of India would not have joined Gandhi in his Satyagraha' - evidently, not all people joined satyagraha. Most people were fairly unaware of what was going on. Among those who joined, many might have been after political power.

I certainly do not want Modi to do a Satyagraha. I would leave that to Mamata.

can you please make a line of argument without using dharma, or satyagraha, or karma yoga, or any such concepts from Gita and scriptures? It is absolutely your choice, ofcourse, but since we are in a debate saying this is my choice too.

neelakantan said...

The media is happy to see the BJP down, but this is politics, nobody is out.

But, for the BJP to win more than what they already have, they need to cover more ground in those states where they do not have presence.

Hear, hear for the Hindutva - as defined by you. I wish the party gets this right. We are 5 years away from the next election and the time to begin is now - not with alliances and fickle allies, but by ourselves.

Shri said...


"A last point: States representatives at the meeting were unanimous and unambiguous in their praise for Narendra Modi."

Are you sure? One heard shri secularwadi representative from maharashtra saying the opposite?

Arvind said...

Hey Bhagwan! Why don't all of you grasp the fact that any political ideology has to be reduced in the simplest terms which the layman or laywoman can understand? Examples: Indira Gandhi's garibi hatao and the present Congress's motto of aam aadmi policies.After all, politics is not Hegelian philosophy or rocket science. "Cultural nationalism", Gandhian socialism" and "Integral humanism" convey nothing to the voter, be he Hindu or Muslim or Christian. In fact, even BJP leaders and grass-root workers don't understand that jargon of Deen Dayal Upadhyaya or whoever. If the BJP is to be viewed as a party that once came up with the masterly slogan, "Justice to all and appeasement of none", and if it wants to construct the Ram Temple at Ayodhya desired by crores of Hindus at the street level(who flock to at least a dozen select and sacred temples in lakhs upon lakhs) and if it wants to use "Hindutva" as its ideology, it should be bold enough and declare, once and for all, that "Hindutva is ensuring
justice is done to the Hindus. And in so doing, it does not position
itself as being against anyone, except those who want to cause harm to the Hindus and Hinduism." Those two sentences are the one used by Vishwa Hindu Parishad in a document on Hindutva it released in 2004. I don't see any harm at all in those two sentences being at the core of "Hindutva" which, really is nothing but a Sanskrit amalgm of "Hindu" + "tatva" (principle).The two sentences are not at all "communal". Rather, by stressing that the expression is not against anyone, it is, fact, the representation of the truly secular concept:"equal respect for all religions" embodied in the slogan "Justice to all, appeasement of none". With that ideology as its core, the BJP can politically demand (i)a Pilgrimage Subsidy for people of all religions(and not only Muslims as at present),(ii)take-over of religious institutions(allegedly mismanaged)need not be confined to temples only and moneys collected in temples by controlling governments should be used exclusively for Hindu people's benefits (education, health care, etc. and not for people of other religions,(iii) Amendment of Article 30 of our Constitution which, by allowing minority religions to establish AND administer their educational institutions, has proved to be grossly discriminatory against the educational institutions of the majority community, etc etc.
Be bold, and see how the Hindus vote for the BJP in unbelievable numbers.
Arvind Lavakare

Arjun said...

Offstumped: The risk nevertheless exists. My point is that if tomorrow Modi is given a responsibility and the BJP faces a fresh electoral setback, Modi should not be jettisoned straightaway. It should be clear to the BJP and its supporters such as myself that there is a vision associated with this guy that looks beyond short term electoral gains. Therefore, someone needs to bite the bullet and accept the possibility that there could be short term collateral damage but that the long term strategy is intact. Dont have to say it openly in a blog but at least keep this aspect in mind. If the only aim is electoral gains ( I understand that is not your immediate objective)then there is a problem.

offstumped said...

@BJP_Supporter

3 reasons why we need those in the political debate:

- Credibility
- Trust
- Moral High Ground

Mr. Modi has the first from his governance track record in Gujarat.

He has a steep deficit on the second and third nobody should be in denial of that reality.

Let us also not be in denial that a Modi lead election will be a highly polarizing one.

I am not one who subscribes to the view that elections should not be polarized.

My concern is a polarizing election can be won only when those who Trust you and consider you wronged overwhelmingly outnumber those who view you with suspicion.

That is the case in Gujarat however at the national level perceptions are vastly different.

People dont doubt Modi's track record but they are unsure of his motives. This undermines the trust factor significantly denying him the moral high ground.

All politics is ultimately about perception.

In this battleground of perceptions unless the UPA commits blunders of the Rajiv Gandhi variety or suffers corruption of the PVNR variety or megalomania of the Indira Gandhi variety, there is not even a remote chance of any existing 2nd or 3rd generation BJP Leader to dent the moral high ground and trust differential currently enjoyed by the Nehru-Gandhis.

Those who want to be in control of their destiny dont leave their fate to other's mistakes.

Hence the need for a Modi to be a true Karma Yogi and walk the talk to reclaim the moral high ground so he can influence change in the issues on which future elections are fought as well as to influence change in the electoral landscape where they are fought.

One election cycle will not be enough this will perhaps take more than one and hence the need for renunciation.

Net, net chances of victory in 2014are slim to ZERO since the BJP is far from revival in UP and nowhere in competition in 5 coastal states - Bengal, Orissa, Andhra, TN, Kerala.

If you focus on rebuilding the organization without distraction starting now you will lay the foundation for a 4th generation leader to be viable in 2019 or earlier.

Sorry folks but this is the bitter truth one must face up to.

Arjun said...

Offstumped: Exactly my point. The BJP is looking at a decade or so out of power. With Modi at the helm, this is guaranteed. I don't think Kanchan believe this to be true and hence my request for an explanation from him on this point.

Jaideep said...

@offstumped, agree with you on fighting an election with Modi as a leader may not be tactically wise. However do you really think Modi renouncing political power will have any credibility. Its not like someone has presented to him the position of PM or even LOP on a platter.

offstumped said...

Arjun - Its not becoz of Modi its becoz BJP did nothing to solidify UP expand in 5 coastal states. Modi in contention for power will not be able to dramatically change that reality as opposed to Modi working as a change agent outside the calculus of power. Hence it wud be wrong for Kanchan Gupta to give the explanation you seek.

Jaideep - Renunciation will have a deeper resonance for most think Modi clings to power becoz it gives him immunity from prosecution on Gujarat 2002. Its a perception we cannot wish away. Renouncing will send a message far more powerful than any apology or regret for Gujarat 2002. Modi in an election campaign saying hang me if I am my guilty is far less credible than Modi showing he can walk away from power since he is committed to a larger cause and has a clean conscience.

Murty said...

How is it that the Congress, which was losing one state after another in the assembly elections, has suddenly turned the tide in its favour, although almost everybody has written it off before the elctions? Why did it happen this way? Why is no one questioning? Why has everyone in the opposition lost their thinking abilities and analytical reasoning?

The whole opposition, including BJP, was shell-shocked and became numb but for how long can this go on?

It occurs to me that the BJP is getting nowhere. It is just trying to find the non-existing answers for its electoral debacle.

BJP would do itself a big favour if it adopted a refreshingly different approach. As some one has already pointed out, it should not compromise on some of its core issues just for the sake of saving some alliances. It should be seen to be having strong convictions. It may have to sit in opposition for several decades but it will be worth it.

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BJP_supporter said...

Offstumped, thanks for the response.

I am in the middle of something so need more time to think through your points and respond. I will do that tomorrow.

I have another question, on UP.

My question is - Mulayam Singh decided to align with Kalyan Singh. The obvious benefit was consolidation of OBC vote after the Dalit+upper caste combination that Mayawati used in 2007. But this also had the obvious risk of losing Muslim vote. Still Mulayam Singh went for it. And this happened much before Varun said anything.

Obviously then, Mulayam Singh was in a position to find out the net gain and take a decision much in advance.

Did he do that because he knew he had already lost the Muslim vote to Congress?

It does not sound credible at all that the complex situation in UP can be explained using Varun. Has anyone done an analysis of actual vote shares of BJP,SP,BSP and congress in UP and how it moved from 2004, 2007 and 2009?

To me it appears that BJP could have done even worse - BSP's Dalit+upper caste combination, SP's OBC consolidation with Kalyan, and Muslims and urban vote going to congress - could have left BJP with absolutely no caste base (except the alliance with Ajit Singh)! Is it possible that they infact finished with 10+5 seats *because* of Varun causing some Hindu consolidation beyond caste lines atleast in some seats?

I am not justifying Varun's hate speech, if he made one. I do not support caste or religious politics. But I am trying to find out what exactly is happening in UP. It sounds incredible that we can use a random speech to explain results in 80 seats in a complex state.

BJP_supporter said...

Kanchan, I read this post twice to see if there is anything to disagree with and there was none.

In particular, I liked it that you made a distinction between Shourie and others in this sentence - "Patwa’s intervention may have forced an end to the ugly trading of charges, including between Shahnawaz Hussein and Maneka Gandhi, and diverted attention from the points raised by Arun Shourie"

Wanted to thank you for that.

Anonymous said...

Hajpayee was a total disaster! He should have resigned in favour of a younger dynamic person in 2001. Instead he waffled on until 2004 and the NDA govt achieved ZERO! Did not even take any action against Pakistan for the attack on Parliament, never mind other attacks like Akshardham Temple etc.

Least he could have done was freed the Hindu temples from British-era institutions giving states control over their income - also given them freedom to invest in educational institutions!

Arjun said...

Offstumped: Where has Kanchan ever said he wants Modi to remain out of the power equation and work as a Karma yogi?? You say that not him and not any other BJPphile commentator such as Swapan Dasgupta. Those who ask for Modi's leadership have an obvious eye on the electoral benefits he will bring and not on his selfless karma yogi behavior...sure the two are linked.but nevertheless, nobody in the BJP will tolerate selfless karma yogi beehavior for too long in the absence of electoral benefits. My query to him was simple: Does he want Modi to remain out of the power equation and do what you have repeatedly suggested: be a karma yogi? Or does he actually think Modi will alter the fortunes of the BJP in the electoral arena within five years and bring back into power?! Nothing wrong in him answering it if he is interested. You seem to worry that the slightest discussion along these lines will damage Modi or give an opening to the lefties. IMHO, this is a meaningless.

I am just making it crystal clear that in my opinion any electoral benefits Modi can bring will take a long long time and immediate electoral benefits are completely ruled out. Whatever he does, the BJP can forget abt power for 10 years.

BTW, Modi himself cannot change a political entity that is as corrupt as the BJP is currently.

Sheela Gopalakrishnan said...

The two muslim leaders in BJP are looking to leave BJP and join congress. Hence they are adopting a very agressive tone. No matter who says what they are leaving what they consider a sinking ship.

Arjun said...

"A last point: States representatives at the meeting were unanimous and unambiguous in their praise for Narendra Modi. Every where he visited during the campaign, they said, the cadre were galvanised and supporters enthused. Nothing more need be said."

How absurd!! The last word on who should be be the BJP leader should be said by way of an internal election!! If Modi is the preferred leader, let the BJP to hold internal elections and let Modi run. Hell let Sinha, Jaswant singh, Shourie and any other Tom,dick and Harry run. if Modi wins, that can be the best first step he can take and will restore credibility to the post of the president. Anyway, Modi's chances in Gujarat for the next elections are dicey!!

do anything but for god sakes dont appoint him via the recommendation of an 80 year old who has so resoundingly been rejected by the electorate.

offstumped said...

Arjun - Answer to your current question is obvious no single individual can turn around a national election for the BJP in a 5 year time frame.

Your original question here and on Swapan's blog was different and had to do with if Modi would damage BJP's prospects. Endless debate on that question is self defeating.

Incognito said...

BJP is passe.
Its now upto RSS to decide if it wants to retain relevance in 20 years time.

If it too waffles as BJP has been doing for the past 10 years, RSS will also become irrelevant in 10 years time and bereft of youth in 20 years time.

It will be undoubtedly a loss for the nation.
But the question is, will there be a nation as we are having now, by then ?

Bhagwat should consider whether he is going to point RSS into oblivion or into revival. RSS and the country is in such a juncture that he can't escape from doing one or other.

If RSS revives and spreads, with it, India will.

RSS can provide the antidote to divisiveness that plagues subverted Indian youth who have been taken in by Maoists, Marxists, Missionaries, Muslim-jihadis and the foreign funded Media, the 5 M.

This is the central question.

Bhagwat, wake up!

As for BJP, a quiet burial is best suited.

mpanj said...

Offstumped I disagree with you on one account – that Modi needs to renounce power to gain credibility.

I’m assuming you are proposing that he give up any claim to the PM’s post or BJP President’s post.

The timing is such that if Modi is elected/nominated President today and renounces any claims to the PM’s chair no one will believe him.

Unlike Sonia’s ‘renunciation’ the PM’s post is not being offered to him.

For him to give up BJP President’s post would be a huge mistake. For one, anyone else occupying that chair would be diminished in stature, given that Modi is fast emerging as the tallest leader in the party. It would create two power centers.

Come 2013 if he is forced to reconsider this decision and run for PM, Congress can claim that Modi is power hungry and that his ‘renunciation’ was a sham to begin with.

Also, when power is coveted with ulterior motives it is frowned upon. When it is sought for serving the nation, it is blessed by the electorate.

Modi occupies a rare space in our political landscape.

1. His personal integrity is unimpeachable.
2. He has no progeny to support/promote.
3. He ensures a corruption free organization even at the cost of creating enemies
4. His competence as an administrator is well documented
5. His strength and uncompromising attitude, both as a leader and an ideologue is well known

Given these factors the only people his renunciation would aim to impress would be the liberal media and their followers.

Modi could offer to have this arms amputated and these folks on the left would find fault with it. Nothing will ever impress them.

Modi declaring a ‘renunciation’ as this juncture only distracts from the larger mission. And gains very little in terms of an image makeover.

Having said that, there’s a simple (but difficult) solution (something others have also proposed):

Hold a proper election for the post of party president. If NaMo wins, he leads BJP for the next 4 years, no questions asked. If he doesn’t, he stays in Gandhinagar.

Ghost Writer said...

I am sad to see your rooting for "democratic centralism" has really rained on my parade for a primary based system for selecting leaders.
One thing I will agree with - this nonsense about alliance building has gone on too long. The allies only end up cannibalising the BJP - they should be prepared to sit out of power if needed, but not do permanent damage by forging 'alliances'. Also it is very very sad to see the BJP in cahoots with the likes of DP Yadav and that Karnataka minister who spent multi-crores on weddings. I an forgive them for losing elections - but I will never forgive them for this

zoomindianmedia said...

BJP Supporter

The raul vinci/manmohan magic in UP is a lie. This has been amply clarified by Diggy Raja himself.

The details on congi surge in UP follow:

1. Panna Lal Puniya is an important name in UP politics. He proved that the dalit votebank is not monolythic. Ex Principal Secretary of Mayawati, an old associate of Kanshi Ram crushed BSP in Barabanki, its stronghold. He recently renamed himself as Panna Lal Chamar to swing Chamar votes. He was a good pick for Congress.

2. Incremental movement of Kurmi/Keori votes to Congress I (islami-isai) on account of Beni Prasad Verma who transitioned from Mulayam in East UP.

3. Muslim vote: There was a very important meeting before the elections. Maulana Mohummad Tauqeer Raza Khan, All India Ittehad Millat Council, inked a deal with Congress. Maulana Tauqeer is great grandson of Maulana Ali Shah Mufti who founded influential Barelvi sect. Barelvi votes did move to Congress. While Barelvis wear the moderate mask they have a legacy of fanaticism similar to Deobandis. These are among the most regressive elements in the world, not just India.

The above factors explain why Congress I (islami-isai) gained ~6% votes.

When all this subterranean activities were going on, Mulayam decided on Intermediate caste consolidation and was confident he will get incremental Rajput, Muslim votes.

Those who argue Varun cost BJP the elections dont know the difference between their arms and feet. The contrarian view that Varun energised BJP cadre in UP is closer to the truth. Also but for Modi's campaigns things could have been worse for the BJP there.

Poor leadership (vajpayee, advani, rajnath, kalyan singh, kalraj Mishra) all need to take the blame; for undoing the remarkable social engineering coalition that the likes of Govindacharya, Kalyan Singh et. al. had conceived, built brick by brick on Ram Movement.

Congis had a superior election strategy and fought a superior tactical fight. Efforts like bribing Vijayakanth to neutralise anti incumbency in TN, deploying Raj Thakeray to split Marathi votes were all effective ones. BJP did not take the horn by the bulls.

The issue of Mahatma Modi's role and renunciation is something being discussed in the blog. I had visited this earlier elsewhere.

What is important is BJP quickly annoints him as the top Gun either through elections (among BJP members, he is a cult figure) or through nomination. Prevarication, delay is not warranted. Maximum we can wait till Swarnim Gujarat. Personally, I dont think BJP should wait till Gujarat assembly elections. Modi magic will also need time, effort and multiplier tools.

Whether Modi should renounce, how to renounce, when to renounce are issues of details best left to Modi, India'a foremost student of Political Science and Practioner. No point breaking our heads on this. His credentials are Karma Yogi are well established among those who have a penchant to vote BJP.

Offstump errors in mixing up godhra prosecution and Modi's CMship. Also the trust differential talk is sophistry. Modi and BJP will not have the trust of islamists/xians, and those who are with them. This is a reality BJP should live with in the short term (5 to 10 years). Somersaults Advani and ilk planned/executed chasing chimeras undermining core voter base did not help BJP. Among 'potential' BJP voters Modi has far more trust than what sonia/rahul vinci can aspire for. Modi can not, will not and should not do any artificial somersaults.

As Highlighted in my earlier comment, three legged strategy is what can make BJP bounce back. Focusing on leadership alone would not suffice. Coherent ideology/Big Ideas along with Social Engineering across social/economic fault lines is necessary.

On Perception shaping, more detailed election analysis, I would urge the reader to visit the blog at http://zoomindianmedia.wordpress.com

zoomindianmedia said...

Kanchanda,

small typo in my previous post "horn by the bulls" to be replaced by "bull by the horns".

If possible edit it there and remove this comment.

BJP_supporter said...

Kanchan, you said -
"Muslims will either consolidate behind the Congress (if the party is seen to be able to practice aggressive appeasement, eg, communal job and education quotas)"

I think it is only rational for any voter to vote for the party that gives them a little something extra.

Quotas can not be seen in isolation, it can not be that only religious quotas have an impact on voters. Any special privilege that is placed beyond scrutiny can and will swing votes. It can swing Hindu vote as well as Muslim vote. We have seen BJP play that game too like in Rajasthan - classify Jats as backward, try not to anger Meenas, also appease Gujars, and fail miserably. It is very possible that if we went by data, Gujjars had a genuine claim for benefits (though not as Scheduled Tribes), Meenas have no claim as Tribes, and Jats claims questionable.

Sadly (to me) BJP has done nothing useful on the overall reservation/quota issue.

BJP_supporter said...

Zoom, I found your response very informative. To the official pollsters like Yogendra, Muslims never voted as a vote bank, and that is clearly a lie.

I dont understand Deobandis and Barelvis, or Chamars and Puniya. But they sound much more credible than blaming it on Varun. I guess you are saying these based on ground reports.

I saw one news item on the day of polling in Delhi - that the Imam Bukhari (did I get that name right?) claimed he voted against congress. If I remember, he is the person in Jama masjid delhi that V.P singh went to in 1989. He was reported to have control over the vote bank in UP and north. If congress still managed to get Muslim votes, that means a ground level shift happened in the community, on who controls vote.

About Kalyan Singh - I think BJP's experience with him has been at best mixed. They may need to now move on forever and work without him.

One request - please see if you can avoid tags like Vinci or Islami-Isai. It could force others to focus more on the merits of your arguments.

zoomindianmedia said...

BJP Supporter

Thanks for the suggestion. There are reasons why I call congi as congress I (islami-isai) and use raul vinci for rahul gandhi.

I will visit this approach in future and if necessary change the terminology.

In communication, it is important that the point gets across. Polish while important is secondary.

There indeed is lot of competition for muslim votes. That said, muslims indeed have historically been better organised resulting in superior bargaining prowess. (Let noone distract the issue citing muslim backwardness which is on account of different reasons beyond the scope of this blog).

Tailpiece 1: damn. In my earlier response to BJP supporter, noticed another typo. Writing on Modi, I wrote "his credentials are Karma Yogi are well established". It should be "his credentials as Karma Yogi are well established"

Tailpiece 2: I had mentioned those who argue Varun cost BJP the elections dont know the difference between their arms and feet. And there are some who know the difference, still point Varun. That deceit is usually bcoz of some hidden agenda.

Titbit: Till now in this blog Modi Nama already appears 75 times. Advani names appear 5 times (my comments).

BJP_supporter said...

Zoom, spooky you counted the number of occurrences of Modi. I did that a few days back in the 'other' blog, and counted Modi and Shourie in the comments far ahead of any of the other 'stalwarts'.

You said - "In communication, it is important that the point gets across. Polish while important is secondary. "

I think some tags (may be true, that is not the question) might stand in the way of that. There was a commenter here who was holding BJP responsible for Manusmriti while still claiming to support the BJP. Please see what is the best way to ensure that even they see the merits in your arguments.

Anonymous said...

This is the saddest part of the BJP .Taking advise from a blatant opportunist like Kanchan Gupta who does not have any clear ideological moorings or vision for this great nation. I am a grass root RSS man and knows from my interaction with Kanchan over the years as a colleague in The Pioneer that he is plant in the Hindutva movement rather than subscribing to any HIndutva ideolgy .He has scant respect for the RSS and rebukes our beloved leaders in private .
Takind advise from such a person who has never toiled for the Hindutva cause is a defenite shift from the glorious tradition of the BJP which was floated as a political party to tranform India into Bharath along the lines of the sangh .Please study the growth of the BJP and one can easily understand where the party is heading to .The party which was catapaulted to power by identifying itself with the Hindutva is now not ideologically clear on the Hindutva ideology.

offstumped said...

MPanj, Zoom - Dont have to sell me on Modi's abilities.

The perception deficit is not about credibility, people know he will do what he means. It is about trust as I said before, people suspect what he is not betraying to them.

Whether renunciation leads to alternate power centers, will it have an impact on media etc.. are all secondary. Its up to the man himself to make the call as Zoom rightly says.

BJP_supporter said...

Anonymous saying Kanchan is opportunist - there are supporters like me who support the BJP independent of RSS. That is not to undermine the social/nationalist work of the RSS. But a political party is more than that.

I read a article from Togadia in the organizer where he said the following - "Has this party provided the benefits of its so-called development and governance to all people in its core constituency totally? If not, then on what basis, such a party went ahead and started saying that it needs to give development and governance to those who are anti-this core constituency while its own core constituency was without such development and governance. Hindus voted this party to power at the centre once ..."

I doubt if any BJP supporter commenting here will support a line like that.

I, like some others, think Kanchan described Hindutva pretty well and without being apologetic. We dont know how you define your 'ideology'.

Shankar Iyer said...

Delimitation in pilibhit significantly altered the constituency's profile, i believe, and there is a reason why Varun attempted to consolidate the Hindu votes. And if we are to believe that Hindu consolidation did happen, it occurs to me as logical to blieve that tactical voting from muslims to oust bjp is to be immediately concluded too (but not necessarily the other way round). But how much hindu consolidation happened is what needs to be known. Since when Muslims vote they vote in considerable numbers so as to affect the result. But the same cannot be said of Hindus. most of the Hindus in u.p might even have related to varun but was it compelling enough to diminish the caste lines, is difficult to say. also since the party kind of distanced itself or to put it rather did not embrace it wholesomely, it is conceivable that Hindu consolidation outside the constituency did not happen much to affect the voting pattern.

By and large it appears, we would have been better off without the Varun factor. he must have energised the campaign sure, but this feeling "Look these guys are doing this again" among the minorities and even hindus must have been exploited by the other parties(am sure they are smart enuf to do that). or atleast varun should have done the consolidation in a more careful and tactical way. at any rate we woundt have had the 'hindutva' debate post-defeat

we need to note that, no community votes unless immediately threatened or when negatively labelled unreasonably. ( this strikes me as a very very reasonable approach to take, from the voters perspective) unless circumstances are so, it is very difficult for any leader to garner votes just on identity, without a reference to a recent event which somewhat demonstrates the issues they raise in election speeches. even for a moment lets believe varun actually made that hate speech, i am not aware , till date, of the context in which he said it. even his other remarks where really out of context and could not have appealed to the larger hindu population. it did appear as if he was raking the issues for the heck of it!

the problem is not that Muslims do not vote for bjp or even Muslims tactically vote to oust bjp. lets consider, that will remain so for bjp. but the problem is not enough hindus vote as hindus unless there is a movement as ram janma bhoomi. nor do majority hindus associate "hindu pride" with a political party per se.

Modi understands this more than anybody when he campaigned for gujrati self-respect which was unreasonably being labelled negatively by the biased media and a dangerous perception was being created by the media about gujratis post-godhra.

finally on modi, it appears, the doubters doubt him and the believers believe him. he is a leader in true sense for sure.

Kanchan Gupta said...

An 'opportunist' would not openly identify himself/herself with the 'Right' in India. He/she would not give up prime time to work for the party or the Sangh. And, he/she would definitely not set aside time from a rather heavy schedule to make an effort on a daily basis to contribute in some worthwhile manner to the 'cause'. I am amused that a certain 'Anonymous' should stoop so low. Since this person has been persisting with his efforts to post a scurrilous message for some time now, I shall not remove his latest post. Hopefully that will satisfy his twisted desire.

zoomindianmedia said...

bjp supporter

Tagodia had a valid point. In politics one has to defend the interests of those who vote for you, not take voters for granted.

Bhavananda said...

IMHO, an honest, hardworking grassroot RSS worker should not have any problem articulating his views in the open using his/her identity. But, passing personal remarks using as an anonymous observer is highly unacceptable in any civillized forum.

BJP_supporter said...

Zoom, politics is for your voters. But Togadia uses the words 'development and governance'. Those need to be for everyone. That clarity is one of the biggest contributions of Modi. He said (and proved with data) his governance is for everybody, irrespective of his politics. Unlike some others who fix arbitrary first claims to select sections.

Dhruv said...

Guess Modi comes before BJP as he has proved by his actions that he keeps the country before anything else including party politics.

Look at today's news , people in Mumbai , Delhi , Patna all our
so-called metros ... were on the streets today burning public property demanding electricity and water.

And look at Gujarat's village , leave alone its cities , all of them are having 24 hr electricity.

Modi's work is in front of everyone .... What more does he need to prove ? If people cannot get him or trust him then they are the loser , India looses ... not him !!

Dhruv said...

Just to add to my previous comment , NDTV is just reporting that Punjab farmers are protesting against power-cuts today as well .... a rich state like Punjab cannot afford 24 hr electricity ...while Gujarat is providing 24 hr 3 phase electricity to all its farmers.

Star News just reported that while the entire country's farmers are facing a disaster situation because of the drought , Pawar sahab our agriculture minister is on a foreign trip ....

Does it need rocket-science to understand what Modi means to India ? Is there a single leader past or present who can match him ?

zoomindianmedia said...

BJP Supporter

Tagodia's point was this. "That the core Hindu voter too cares for good governance, development. And that to argue Hindutva and Development are mutually exclusive is disingenuous and false".

zoomindianmedia said...

Varun's impact as a major factor on elections is a useful fiction kept alive by two self serving motives:

(a) MSM's necessity to position him as a bad boy visavis raul vinci, whose personality, character does not provide them confidence.

(b) BJP's factionalism

Shankar Iyer said...

"his governance is for everybody, irrespective of his politics."

Good distinction made there, Bjp Supporter. But i am afraid, not all take this the way you and me take it, at present. When I made this same point while debating with my friend he came up with this: "During Hitler's time Germany on the whole was prosperous, so we allow Hitlers to rule at any cost?". Obnoxious to equate Modi with Hitler and germany with india and history with contemporary, but these are very much prevalent in the air.

How to fight such things? To take them and show the growth of Gujrat? Take them to the Muslim homes in Gujrat and get a first hand account from them on what they think of Modi? Not practical, I suppose.

Offstumped's , barring the loaded words Dharma, karma yogi, etc , the trust factor makes sense. A change of heart towards Modi is what is required among the people. SC verdict in his favor should render the breakthrough, I am hoping. There will be no need for the calculated renunciation etc... The verdict on Modi has to come from a "neutral party". Either God, which seems far-fetched, or the Supreme Court. What do you think?

Bhavananda said...

@Shanker Iyer -
"Take them to the Muslim homes in Gujrat and get a first hand account from them on what they think of Modi?"
Any reason to think that "they" have not been there already? Arch commies, Mahesweta Devi in Bengal to Abdullakutty in Kerala were all gaga over Modi's Muslim development in Gujarat. Yet, strongest proponents of "developmental politics" loathe at the idea of Modi as PM. Doesn't this sound like "developmental politics" has really nothing to do with development?
Kanchan da as said it right - BJP can dance on its head, do somersault, etc but Muslims won't vote for BJP. EVER. In the same way, no matter how developed BJP ruled states become, those who blindly oppose BJP will keep doing so. Its high time BJP supporters/workers realize this and stop dancing to their tunes.

sam said...

Mr.Kanchan Gupta, though you are an intelligent journalist, but you are paid by L K Advani, directly or indirectly. Carrot and stick policy for the journalists is a long time methodology of Advani. Ask Asok Malik how he was kicked out from Indian Express by the influence of Advani over Sekhar Gupta.
In your analysis of BJP's National Executive Meeting, you have tried your best to cover up the sins of Advani and helplessness of the Party. In the meeting, everybody said everything only to bury the actual reasons behind the defeat under carpet.
Nobody in the Executive Council had the guts to ask Advani:
1)Why a separate war room was set for the elction ignoring the party headquarters?
2)Why non political net savvy professionals were hand picked by Advani to run the campaign? Now who will take the resposibility of their failure.
3)Why only Advani's photos were used in the whole campaign totally ignoring Shyamaprasad, Deendayal and even Vajpayee? Was Advani's face enough to inspire the cadre of the whole Sangh Parivar? How did he dare to think so?
4)Why Advani's wife and daughter got so much importance whereas they have no contribution in politics?
5)What effort was done to undo the demoralizing effect of Advani's Jinnah praise over the cadres?

There are many more questions to be answered by Advani and his team. But unfortunately there is nobody in BJP who has the guts to ask these questions. And this gutless BJP is the creation of Advani and Vajpayee.
And these Kanchan Guptas are there to cover up the sins, misdeeds and failures of Advanis and Vajpayees, of course not without a price.This price culture has been introduced in BJP by late Pramod Mahajan.
Yours,
Tapan Ghosh, Kolkata

BJP_supporter said...

Shankar, I will make a few points regarding Offstumped's argument and your question.

1. Modi has credibility as an administrator, for improving governance. From a Muslim CPI-M MP from Kerala to Ratan Tata, this has been acknowledged.

2. Modi is the only chief minister to have been accused of 'lacking humility and not begging for votes', and 'daring to send people to jail in an election year for not paying electricity and water bills'. That same editor also said that in India it is the other way around - you beg for votes during elections in all humility and then show an arrogant middle finger to the voters after winning.

Modi won that election with 50% vote share. All of India saw that.

3. The above argument on humility is perverted. A third rate manager in a fourth rate company will want to exercise his authority and not have it undermined. But the highest political offices in India are now expected to show this 'humility' and better still, be a doormat to be walked all over by ministers who will not care. This has even become glorified in circles like your friends that compare Modi to Hitler.

This perversion is so clearly obvious and is so much against common sense, and I believe when a contrast is shown people will notice it.

4. There is an argument that it worked in Gujarat and will not work anywhere else. I say we have not tried it yet to know if it works or not. And we have nothing else to try (and even if we had, this is the best).

5. From the above, Modi is a Master Politician/administrator. For him to turn around and try a 'sacrifice' (and sacrifice what? he has nothing else anyway) will be unconvincing. Let us not get carried away too - a televised and often quoted 'sacrifice' fetched only some 25% vote including committed vote banks.

6. People may like a Karma Yogi, but there is a very limited impact such a karma yogi can have on society. Did Vivekananda convince every convent educated elite in his generation and the present to quit loathing Hinduism? or did he convince every - or even a majority - of missionaries to quit harvesting here?

But I do not even have to use this argument because Modi is a Master Politician with an excellent execution record and unique in the way he won his election. That is the Modi we want. Period.

7. What happens with the SIT is an unknown. But that is unlikely to sway either his supporters or the sold-out detractors.

8. What he could do next? The office of the BJP president is not serious - it has an arbitrary 3 year cap, the past few presidents have been compromise candidates so that the real powers do not get threatened. And that does not fit with Modi the master politician/administrator.

He could move to Delhi as the leader of the opposition. If the BJP also needs him as the president, they can do away with the arbitrary 'one man one post' rule and make him the president too with a 5 year term. As the Leader of opposition in LS, Modi can do what Shourie said in his speech recently -

"And the Opposition will have to work much harder to discharge its proper role. Indeed, for all parties, there are the same two lessons.
• Inside Parliament, each should seek to engage others in a competition for advancing the better ideas and proposals. No one will gain merely by shouting about problems – people know the problems that afflict them; after all, they live them. They will have to be convinced that this side rather than the other has the better solutions, that it has worked out the solutions in detail, that it holds better promise of implementing the solutions rather than its rivals. "

I dont see anyone else in the BJP with that calibre except Modi and Shourie. And Shourie is not a master politician.

And doing that is not just about 2014 - it is the job of the BJP anyway. In the process, they can also improve their chances for 2014 - and no, we dont want them to be selfless karma yogis and not keep 2014 in mind.

With that, I say God speed.

BJP_supporter said...

Further to my last comment, looking at offstumped's arguments, the following appear key -
1. Offstumped: "there is not even a remote chance of any existing 2nd or 3rd generation BJP Leader to dent the moral high ground and trust differential currently enjoyed by the Nehru-Gandhis."

I say: this is the template media tried to give us in 26/11 - all politicians bad. Some people that the media identify are not politicians. My question: who defines the moral high ground and who decides who gets to be on this moral high ground? A politician who allocates arbitrary claim on resources is on moral high ground?

I can agree if you say there is a need to fight this premise itself.

2. Offstumped says: "Renouncing will send a message far more powerful than any apology or regret for Gujarat 2002. Modi in an election campaign saying hang me if I am my guilty is far less credible than Modi showing he can walk away from power since he is committed to a larger cause and has a clean conscience."

I say: this is in the context of the SIT / SC probe. In that context, Modi saying 'hang me if I am guilty' is entirely credible. Like every other citizen, he too has the right to a trial and defend himself. In the meantime he has a right to do his job.

There is a probe. What if the probe results in no clear statement one way or another? I am just thinking of a possibility.

As for the riots in 2002, there are things a politician/administrator can do beyond a meaningless apology or regret. I dont want to say more on that here.

Right Angle said...

/** When I made this same point while debating with my friend he came up with this: "During Hitler's time Germany on the whole was prosperous, so we allow Hitlers to rule at any cost?". Obnoxious to equate Modi with Hitler and germany with india and history with contemporary, but these are very much prevalent in the air.
**/

ITs fashionable convenience for those sickularists to equate hitler with modi..

But we need to demolish the greater myth here..

Hitler killed 6 million jews, which is a genocide, no doubt.. But do your friend know, that Britain killed more than 30 million indians in india, through various means.. like artificial famine in bengal, alone killed around 10 million people..

The difference b/w hitler and britain is same as the difference b/w the person who kills people through gun, and the person who kills the entire people, by poisoning food and water sources or through bio & chemical weapon..

If Hitler is a daemon, then what about america, which dropped atom bomb on hiroshima and nagasaki, wiping the entire city, for generations?

Winners write history, and that history need not always be true..

Btw, the genocide of jews done by hitler was actively supported by the catholic pope at that time.. Do any one question the poppy?

We indians, are giving away to the notion, that some people are always evil, and some people are always divine.. this is a christian concept..

Like mahatma was god, and that godse was a demon/evil..

In hinduism, Ravana was an asura.. but that does not prevent valmiki from describing his good qualities.. Similarly, eventhough rama was a god, his wrongs, mistakes are openly debated.. That is the spirit of hinduism..

In my view, if Hitler had done some remarkable work in terms of development, there is nothing wrong in adopting that.. we need not shy away because of the fascist pseudo-secular gandhians..

Right Angle said...

Modi taking over the party president has far reaching effect on the future of the BJP..

Usually, in any organisation, the second and third level leaders depend on the top leadership.. bcoz, its the top leaderships, which should identify the right talented people and promote them to the higher level..

In this aspect, i should say, so far, the top leadership has been lethargic without any proper executive vision.. hence the development of second and third level leaders were random and spontaneous.. in that sense, those vested interests, those who had influence over top leadership but no proper leadership quality, tend to raise in the party.. the top leadership so far has been not action oriented.. they were easily bullied by the secular media..

I feel, when Modi takes over, the first thing he would do is to promote the right kind of leadership at the various levels, both at center and states.. and his strategy will percolate to all lower level leaders and his efficient co-ordination skills will give a dircetion to the party leaders right to the ground level..

Over a period of years, the ground level leaders get trained and they in turn develop themselves under the guidance of modi..

I feel, Modi should take over as next president and given a free hand.. the party will revitalise in an unimaginable manner..

As socrates told, to capture a country, all the surrounding states should be captured and then advance towards the center..

In my opinion, under the leadership of modi, all the important states should be captured, (rajasthan, maharashtra, jharkhand, UP, Haryana etc).. that will automatically lead to the final battle of 2014.

So, BJP under modi should concentrate on the immediate battles..

And the first thing they should work towards is in banning the use of EVMs in the coming elections.

Bhavananda said...

@Right Angle and "others who go into backfoot whenever someone compares Modi and Hitler": -

You need to hit them back by saying that we allowed Rajiv Gandhi to rule India after killing 10,000 Sikhs (by similar extrapolation as applied to "3000 muslims dead" in Gujarat). At least Modi is an able administrator unlike Rajiv Gandhi who was worse than a *(&^#@%^ .... whatever you may want to add.

Then, if you want to add, say that Hitler destroyed imperial Britain and helped liberate India, unlike Rajiv who was on a war path to destroy India .... so on and so forth ...

Balaji said...

Lets ask a simple question: Will BJP even exist if Modi, the macho Hindutva man is soundly thrashed by Rahul Gandhi in 2014?

Those rooting for Modi here are the ones who predicted 200 seats for BJP alone! Some even predicted a BJP win in UP assembly elections! These people with their Sangh background have no idea about India and live in their own imaginary world.

BJP needs to abandon Hindutva and all elements associated with it like Modi, Advani, Rajnath, VHP, Bajrang Dal etc. Religion is the opium of the masses. But as India slowly but steadily comes out of back-breaking poverty, its economics that'll matter. Modi even if he converts Gujarat into 'heaven' will only remembered as the mass murderer by millions of Indians who quite rightly think about politics only on rare occasions.

Nationalism, Humanism and conservative economics should be the cornerstone of our politics. Hindutva and Modi belong in the dustbin of history.

BJP_supporter said...

balaji,
you need to read what you type atleast once before you post. read what you are saying below and see if it makes any sense.

"But as India slowly but steadily comes out of back-breaking poverty, its economics that'll matter. Modi even if he converts Gujarat into 'heaven' will only remembered as the mass murderer by millions of Indians who quite rightly think about politics only on rare occasions."

Right Angle said...

BJP Supporter,

A typical pseudo secularists like balaji will baffle like that.. contradiction, utter lies, hatred, baseless accusations are hall marks of the pseudo secular gang..

Let's ignore such comments..

Shankar Iyer said...

Let us not dismiss Balaji's self-contradictory comment. Not that it is to be taken as representational of the majority, but still it throws some light on the Modi phenomenon and the perception .

Modi's credentials on Hindutva is unquestionable, which is his ideology. Thats what make them say 'macho hindutva' etc, also on the other hand, his development and governance has been acknowledged now across India. Gujarat is now seen as the model state, "thanks to modi".

Balajis make the error because they start with a commonplace assumption without any conviction that religion and progress cannot go hand in hand, and when they set about proving it in case of modi, they naturally fall in to a contradiction, as Modi actually represents and is synonymous of both the seemingly opposing sides, hindutva identity and progress. he represents both amply clearly. not only that he has ably proved to keep the fringe elements of the society in check.

The prejudice that many carry against Modi is what causes them to fall in to this contradiction. No logical argument will suffice to wipe away the prejudice, which again brings in the trust factor. Modi needs to win people's hearts. That alone will wash away the prejudice. His "lack of humility" will be seen as "positive aggresion, dynamism, confidence, conviction". His "overt macho-ness" will be seen as "ideological clarity".

I am far from suggesting an apology or a calculated renunciation. It has to be something else. time will have the answer to it.

Kanchan Gupta said...

Balaji: In the past I have had to point out your choice of words and intemperate language. It upsets me to do this, but I have no option other than removing your last comment. The debate that takes place here is immensely valuable to understand popular perceptions. But please do not let debate to degenerate into personal attacks and vituperative abuse. This is an earnest request to all who visit this blog. I am sure the request will not go unheeded. Thanks.

mpanj said...

Folks,

Its time to pop the champagne ….. ha, ha, ha.

I’m delighted at Balaji’s latest nugget:

“Modi even if he converts Gujarat into 'heaven' will only remembered as the mass murderer by millions of Indians who quite rightly think about politics only on rare occasions.”

“Modi EVEN IF HE CONVERTS Gujarat into HEAVEN…….”

Wow, Balaji has finally conceded that Modi has achieved this (or is on his way to achieving it).

We have all tried to convince him on this (and other blogs) simple fact - NaMo’s credentials as a leader and administrator are beyond compare.

We gave him facts and figures. Pointed out NaMo’s hard earned accolades from even his worst enemies.

But Balaji kept coming back with empty, asinine allegations. Never any facts.

Looks like he has thrown in the towel.

Also, KG’s comment about Balaji using foul language.

Folks, it is a sure sign that:

a) he is a pseudosecularist, masquerading as a nationalist
b) his arguments have no real merit
c) its time to let Sonia/Barkha’s lap dog do his barking. At the very least he will keep entertaining us.


p.s. Wonder where his 'dedication' to Sushmaji has disappeared. Hasnt mentioned her lately :-)
Or was she just a trial ballon - anyone but Modi - anything to somehow defeat NaMo.

Balaji said...

wow!

Kanchanda, I challenge you to point out the lines in my last post that were vituperative. And what do you mean by personal attacks? I pointed out the political failures of Modi. You have a problem with that? And you a write a post titled Waffle at BJP exec. funny.

anyway its your blog. you are free to censor it as you see fit. the absolute iron curtain you and Swapanda raise to any criticism of Modi simply amazes me. its a lesson on PR management, no doubt.

BJP_supporter said...

Balaji, you used 'mass murderer'. You used the old communist trick to attribute it to 'millions of people' but it does not cut it still. A charge like that is libel.

Dont act all innocent and hurt. You (and everyone else) pretty much know what you are upto.

Sudhir said...

I don't know why people here are arguing with Balaji. If people had visited the offstumped blog you will realize that no what proof you present ,he will never reply to your arguments and keep on repeating his lines like "Modi is a Mass murderer". As more and more people engage him in debate he will next graduate to next level of rhetoric where he will say "Hindutva aka facism" or "RSS is brahmainism" etc. Then finally he will move to "Ramayana is racist" or "Ramayana is written against dravidians" etc... If you point out any fallacy of argument then he will simply say "why are you obssessed with this " or " don't take that literally". Initially I used to get angry but then realised that these people are best ignored.

Balaji, By any chance your full name is Balaji Sampath??

Balaji said...

oh, the term 'Mass murderer' demands censoring a comment? Vir Sanghvi and Rajdeep Sardesai and many others have used it a zillion times that in India, "Mass Murderer" is synonymous with Modi. and 2000 murders isn't mass murder? a million murders I guess is called a holocaust.

anyway, I have reproduced in my blog (as for as I can remember) the comment censored by Kanchanda. those who care can read it here. Lest anyone claim I have changed the language, I once again challenge Kanchanda to point out the lines that are vituperative.

Kanchan Gupta said...

Balaji: Desist! I had to remove your post, which I rarely ever do, unless limits are transgressed. I am sure people who read/write here are aware of what Mr Sanghvi and Mr Sardesai have to say; so there is no need to repeat their utterances here. If you wish to draw their attention, do so by all means but not on this blog. This is NOT about censorship, but keeping the debate from degenerating into abuse, a point I have made on an earlier occasion. This distracts from the core of the issue. If you wish to contribute to the debate, you are most welcome to do so, but without using language that is harsh and libelous. I don't think I am asking for too much, am I? So, let's move on.

Balaji said...

Sudhir,

you have made my day. glad that you remember many of my positions. I stand by them.

so many people have advised me to sugar coat what I say, but I see no merit in that advice. I'm not in a popularity contest. I care about BJP and the country in general and hence make my observations. If people find it offensive and hence hate me, its hardly my concern. Just as you remember many of the salient points I have made, I hope people will stand back after yet another defeat, and see what I can see now itself.

In anycase, these are my opinions. And I'm not interested in changing other's opinions. please feel to reject mine.

ps: nope, I'm not Balaji Sampath.

BJP_supporter said...

There is some noise about power shortage in media.

Shourie made this point in his recent speech in parliament - "recall that we guarantee, by law, a rate of return of 16.5% on investment in mega power plants. Japan’s post office bank alone sits on deposits of around 2 trillion dollars, earning just 0.05 to 0.383 per cent interest. Yet they do not invest in our power plants "

Does the BJP intend to play its role here? or would it let the media say 'all politicians bad and ugly'? And get away, and make everybody forget that a single party has been in power for 60 years?

Sudhir said...

http://expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=Terrorists+who+enjoy+immunity+from+the+law&artid=jc8f257CkgA=&SectionID=f4OberbKin4=&MainSectionID=f4OberbKin4=&SEO=&SectionName=cxWvYpmNp4fBHAeKn3LcnQ==

"Lalgarh has lately become a war zone. But, cut back to June 2001. Exactly eight years ago, the very police station, some 180 km off Kolkata, had reported the traumatically prolonged gang rape of a teenaged tribal woman inside its premises. The 18-year-old Meena Sardar became insane after being sexually abused for 14 days.

This, after the murder of a CPI(M) functionary who torpedoed the decision to set up a hospital. Sud­hir Mandi, the party’s local committee secretary, was killed by the far-Left MCC (Maoist Communist Centre) on June 7, 2001. Mandi reportedly had a pact with local contractors who had a say in the activities at most of the CPI(M)’s zonal committees."

This has been happening in WB since the CPIM came to power and we don't see these Vir Sanghvi's and Slurdesai's writting about the CPIM.

May be their writings are reserved for one person

Bhavananda said...

I agree with Sudhir. I used to visit Offstumped long back and there in the middle of a nice discussion, Balaji would just pop up and use phrases like Modi-mass-murderer, fascist-Hindutva and such other rants. And the entire blog got hijacked, trying to "prove" Balaji as wrong. No matter what the argument was, the catch phrases didn't change. Last time I checked, almost half the offstumped comments were by Balaji (and a few others like gujjuman, etc). Whats worse is that he uses phrases like "religion is the opium of mass" and keep saying that he's not a marxist-liberal but a nationalist. And, I'm seeing a repetition of all that here.

As a right-conservative, I'm all for free speech, but from personal experience, I don't think there is any other way to stop this blog being hijacked, other than blocking such mindless diatribe into the discussion.

As one of the oldest reader and commentator of this blog, I highly value this blog and urge Kanchan da to keep this discussion objective and useful.

Anonymous said...

I agree with Sudhir and Bhavananda.Balaji is a mindless troll
and he should be banned from getting his say here.We are not here to discuss his deep rooted fallacies which he regurgitates from time to time.His comments on offstumped are ample proof.If an idiot like him is a BJP supporter no wonder the seats are going down.He says he did door to door camapaigning in BJP.With campaigners like him who needs enemied.Guys pls ignore him..Kanchanda pls readup his past comments on offstumped and then decide .To ban him from posting here will be better.

Suyash said...

Reading through the comments one gets an impression that the travails of BJP could be explained if the thought process within the BJP mirrors those on this comment.( And I do not know that, but I do know this is a site dedicated to avowed BJP fan)

Commentators here, most of them NRI's firmly ensconsed in cushy environs, with no vote to contribute, not only sermonize about what is wrong with everyone else but the BJP (ELMmedia, MMS, CEC, EVM, Indian voter, minorities)but will not listen to anyone who differs in opinion with them. Calling them troll, pseudo secular(whatever that means) and all sorts of names.....in effect unable to make ONE person cross over to their aisle, but also drive people away from theirs.

It would have taken very little effort to click on the name of Balaji, who is under some vicious attack here, to know that not only is he one of them, but in fact one who puts his money where his mouth is!! Does some rigorous campaigning in the field dedicated to the cause of right. His fault - he doesn't agree with the Modi brand of politics, or probably brahmanical heirarchy. So butcher him. He doesn't belong to us. Good going !!!

Am wondering if there is any truth to Arun Shouries's charge that 6 journalists( wonder who they are :P) are running the show in BJP. And the karyakarta's view is bulldozed by the armchair analysts !!

Maverick said...

BJP being run by six journalists: Shourie

He did not name anyone but it was obvious that he referred to the members of LK Advani’s think tank, namely Sudheendra Kulkarni, Balbir Punj, Chandan Mitra, Swapan Dasgupta, Kanchan Gupta and Ravindra Dani.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2009/20090621/main4.htm

Coming from Shourie, this is a compliment!!

BJP_supporter said...

Suyash, assuming you are not an alter-ego of Balaji. How did you miss the discussion between offstumped, arjun, shankar iyer, zoomindianmedia, mpanj and me, on Modi? That is the bulk of the comments. Each of us had a different view point and in some cases critical.

Balaji and you walk in with crap and expect a discussion? try writing letters to the editor of Hindu to amuse yourself.

None of my comments have been deleted by Swapan or Kanchan. I have disagreed a lot with Swapan. I disagreed with Kanchan on a point he made in the update to this post. Those comments are all there.

(ps. I am not feeding the troll. the obvious false charge needs to be countered).

Bhavananda said...

MS Swaminathan probably did more for Indian agriculture than a thousand farmers put together. Its not "absolutely" necessary to be in the fields to make a contribution. Surely, those doing ground work have more to contribute than those providing suggestions. Given Balaji's previous Marxist statement (religion is opium of mass), I can only understand that he and his likes would like everyone to plough the fields as Marxists desire. But as Steve Jobs once told, one cannot steer a ship no matter how much power is put into it, if there is a big hole in the bottom. So, discussions are helpful, especially that BJP is at crossroads today.

From the election results, one doesn't have to be explicitly told that a lot of those doing "door-to-door" campaigning for BJP were indeed "Modi-haters". And, given that Modi was the star campaigner of the BJP, its quite obvious that BJP was divided right in the middle - one fraction proModi another antiModi.

Its not absolutely necessary that every Indian/Hindu has to like Hindutva or Modi-brand of politics. But for those who are anti-Hindutva or anti-Modi, there is another party and it is called CONGRESS. Congress has "almost" done everything that the BJP has done - from Nuclear tests to fighting wars against Pak, from Garibi hatao slogneering to economic reforms. Surely, there are more subtle differences between the two. The BIGGEST, and without any doubt, biggest difference between congress and BJP has been that BJP (claimed to) stood up for the Hindus explicitly. So, in my humble opinion, if Hindutva and/or Modi (who has been fully praised by almost every single BJP leader worth the name) is SO DISTASTEFUL, why for heaven's sake, don't they leave BJP and join Congress party?

ps - For the record, I've never called anyone a troll or used verbal abuse.

Anonymous said...

"Commentators here, most of them NRI's firmly ensconsed in cushy environs, with no vote to contribute, not only sermonize about what is wrong with everyone else but the BJP"

---------------------------------
I don't understand why these morons makes perception like these and try to belittle or contributions. On what ground, what data u came to the conclusion that we r NRI brigade ? Boss, I'm from Bhopal and I have better understanding of politics than the likes of AJ, Swapan, Kulkarni et al but doesn't have any say in the party. So our views, intellectuality, noesis is as important as that of a win or vote. Pls don't make statements like these we r concern youngsters of this country who can give insights of the hoi polloi feelings and many more things.

@ To others;
Yes, I agree, Balaji needs to be ban. He is a moron of first order.

Anonymous said...

I follow CNN-IBN journos on twitter. These r their views on Librahan commission. One lady journo who was so enthralled by this report that she gleefully incriminated that Modi and RSS ( b'coz of Sandhi Pragya) should keep themselves ready for jail! As they were going to meet same fate as Librahan commission's r going to met. Diptosh Majumdar another Bengali journo and possible Swapan's "family friend" goes on to the extent of saying that BJP will benefit from this report as it'll unite Saffron leaders! So they don't want us to unite! Oh I understand all their hard work over the years in destroying BJP will go in gutter if they unite. Then in his second twit he said BJP is confused on Hindutva ( thanks to the likes of Swapan who started this nonsense and helped BJP's enemies) and this report could be Congress's tactical blooper. For evidence u can check screenshots of that twits here. U can see the full page image by clicking on the full image button option on the given website link. There r two images, remember.

http://img29.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=screenshot712009124832a.png

mpanj said...

Suyash,

Please do your research on how we have tolerated and addressed Balaji's hate Modi campaign on this and other blogs.

We made the mistake of taking Balaji seriously - at first.

If you go back to his comments on offstumped or on SDG's blog, you will see that he doesnt have a position based on facts.

He has a one point agenda - Hate Modi.

When presented with facts he jumps ship and tries something new.

First it was Sushmaji, Sushmaji...against NaMo. When it was pointed out that she was known more for her high profile antics than her leadership experience he changed his tune.

He started questioning Modi's development record. I have personally researched and posted numerous links to support our arguments.

To which, Balaji’s response was – “This is just tokenism”.

The list of Modi admirers keeps growing – From Rajiv Gandhi Foundation to the World Bank, to India Today magazine, to Sreedharan (father of Konkan railway and Delhi metro) to now the Maharastra Govt. (It has recently taken the decision to emulate Modi and implement his girl child development schemes).

When presented with these facts he starts using the same nomenclature made famous by Teesta Setalvad and Vir Singhvi – “Mass Murderer” …… WTH.

I’m all for an open dialogue – this is the time to put everything on the table – everything.

But if you come to these forums with a one point, preset agenda – that wont work. At the very least – back it up with some facts.

Lastly, I don’t know about others, but I don’t support NaMo because he talks a big talk. It’s about the principles he lives not the personality he presents.

As long as he stays true to those nationalistic principles – we will support and defend him in whatever way we can.

Suyash said...

Guys,

There will be Modi lovers and Modi haters...outside the BJP & also within the BJP. He is that kind of polarising figure. There will be arguements in favor of him ( backed by some factual figures as some of you have tried to) and also against him (As has been corraborated in court proceedings and other avenues that most here love to hate)...Doesn't matter !! But to expect that one "has to" agree to other's opinion ( because you have condescended to explain to someone), it doesn't work that way !! He will be GOD for many here ( I saw someone refer to him as Mahatma continuously:), and he will be a mass murderer for many others. That's how it is. Gujarat riots will remain for Modi what 1984 has remained for Tytler and Sajjan Kumar (Despite courts acquiting them...which many of you will hotly contest) So be it.

@Bhavananda,..excerpts from the same comment.
"its quite obvious that BJP was divided right in the middle - one fraction proModi another antiModi."
"if Hindutva and/or Modi is SO DISTASTEFUL, why for heaven's sake, don't they leave BJP and join Congress party?"

Doesn't it follow that you are asking half the BJP to join Congress?

@BJP_supporter : I shall try to comment till the blog owner has a problem with me. Will leave if I am asked to as has happened in few cases earler. I thought you guys will appreciate the diversity I provide. Or else you keep echoing each other and falsely believe that it's the universal truth - and then are stunned when electoral results come out. :)

@ the anonymous guy who claims to have more political understanding than AJ, Kulkarni, Swapan etc...dude figure out how to put your name while commenting !! :) Wouldn't you want that someone with your capabilities be picked up by BJP and utilized pronto? And err....also look at the flag counter on swapans blog will ya? :P

Sundararaman said...

suyash,
for modi 2002 should be what 1984 was to Rajiv and not tytler or Sajjan kumar because the charge against modi is culpability for negligence and not presence and incitement at the site of riots which is the charge against tytler and sajjan kumar. The abetment charge against modi is similar to the charge against rajiv for his comment when a tree falls the earth will shake. This comment has a recorded corroboration but the attributed comment of modi "action and reaction" has no corroborative proof.

Suyash said...

Sundararaman,

History doesn't stick the 1984 riots to Rajiv because of simple reason. He did his best to stop the riots. It is well documented that Rajiv was on the streets of Delhi even before his mother was cremated to stop the riots and being in the control room. It may suit a few to take only a portion of his statement "tree, earth" and completely ignore the rest of the statement and context to try & see if the dirt sticks !! It hasn't. Now it's too late to try.

Modi is accused of abetting the riots as a CM, not following the rajdharma as Sh.ABV famously said. It's not about negligence but abetment. Serious because of his position as a constitutionally elected CM.

Sudhir said...

Suyash,

Please enlighten me as to
1) when was the curfew imposed in 2 cases Gujarat riot and Anti -Sikh riot
2) How many rioters were killed in both the riots in police firing?

Eagerly waiting for your reply.

Suyash said...

Sudhir,

I do not know. And it is quite tiresome to argue about such points. What warrants a curfew? How were the situations comparable in the field? What information was being received by control room? What were the political instructions? What ws the mob strength and behaviour?.....One can get into this and spin round and round till the cows come home.

I or you cannot be a judge of these technical details and that's why enquiry commissions sit and take forever to establish such facts. It's not about a designer questionnarie where 2 questions will resolve the doubts.

And you cannot expect your electorate who vote to know this either. Public opinion most times are based on perception too, however unfair or incorrect. Bofors has stuck to Rajiv. 1984 hasn't. But the sikh anger was directed at Congress/Rajiv. Sikh anger was also towards Indira Gandhi for operation bluestar. But historically she is not blamed for the operation. Many Sikhs do still. Muslims deserted Congress for 1991, out of perception.

Similarly is the case with Modi who is perceived guilty by many for abetment for 2002. Reason - As I said, court strictures, reports, Modi's attitude, some f his speeches and his steadfast refusal to come clean about it ( like the Karan Thapar show where he left in 5 minutes).

Get me into who called whom at what time what date...firing figures...err...I don't know. I don't need to either. I am not an expert or interested party on that.Neither are normal voters.

Balaji said...

>> why for heaven's sake, don't they leave BJP and join Congress party?

we will. we are just waiting for Atalji, Sushmaji, Jaswant, Yashwant, Nitish etc to form a new right-wing/humanist party and leave the BJP to Hindu Fascists like Advani and Modi. [Kanchanda, please lookup the dictionary/wikipedia meaning of Fascism before deleting this comment]. The alternate solution of Hindu fundamentalists being silenced or thrown out of BJP is even better.

I stand by point that Modi's development record on Social sectors is not upto the mark. Those interested can read that comment here. And his contribution to the national party is negligible compared to the damages he has done.

And ofcourse I will continue to promote Sushamji as the PM candidate in 2014 and beyond. Here's a fan site for her which I try to keep updated. People are welcome to contribute too.

And anyone who quotes 1984 riots to defend Gujarat riots has grossly missed the point. We are disgusted with Congress track record, but demand that BJP set its house in order.

M. Patil said...

Suyash said...

I do not know. And it is quite tiresome to argue about such ...

I or you cannot be a judge of these technical details and that's why enquiry commissions sit and take forever to establish such facts. It's not about a designer questionnarie where 2 questions will resolve the doubts.

My Reply,
You must talk about yourself, however the rest of us can use our brain and form opinions based on facts.

Fact 1. Number of Congress rioters killed in firing in the aftermath of 1984 Sikh riots.

Zero.

Fact 2. Number of people killed by Sikhs in 1984 riots.

Zero.

So, in other words if facts become inconvenient you ignore them and hide behind some mumbo jumbo.

Here on the internet readers are sophisticated enough to see through your hypocrisy. You ain't fooling anyone.

P.S. This mail is from Hyd, India.

Sudhir said...

Suyash,

I asked you two simple questions and you could have given me direct answers but you tried to obfuscate the answers. But you have no qualms in issuing a character certificate to Rajiv Gandhi.
Let me give you some facts (though I am pretty sure it will not matter for you)
1) Police in Gujarat made 827 preventive arrests on Feb 27 - same day as the burning of the Sabarmati express. Shoot at sight orders were issued in Godhra on the same day by afternoon. (check secular TOI or rediff site)
2) Feb 28 (day 2) RAF and CISF were deployed in Ahmedabad to prevent any voilence. curfew imposed in Baroda and Ahmedabad. Army on standby. Modi requests the neighbouring states for help (Maha MP and Raj ruled by congress all refuse)
3) Army flag march on March 1st.

Please check the wikipedia site for the corresponding turn of events in case of anti-Sikh riots.

I posted these because next time if someone asks you the same question you will not obfuscate citing technical difficulties.

Shankar Iyer said...

Disappointing these guys have hijacked the smooth debate we were having on an altogether different and very specific and important issue. Really disappointing. Is it so difficult to follow a line of thought or respond to specifics? Guys, please go through the comments starting from Offstumped and what debate we were having and see if you guys have done any justice to the debate and if possible please correct yourselves. It is really not necessary you need to have an opinion on everything, we could atleast resist at times from the temptation to write when we dont know what to write.

Suyash said...

Sudhir,

For 2 simple questions, I have asked you 5 simpler one's. And I am sure you can come back with 8 and I can increase it further. Pointless as I said earlier. As some wise guy said....The good thing with numbers is if you torture them enough, they will confess to anything !! :)

@MPatil...I didn't get the point. What were you trying to say by those two facts? Riots will be started by idiots and few more will participate/react to them. Every riot has to be condemned. (Interesting that you choose to say congress rioters, I have never heard anyone mention BJP/Sangh rioters) There will be some "leaders" who will incite the mobs ( Tytler, Sajjan, Uma, MMJoshi).....the question is does the govt. of the day "side" with someone or does it duty for which it was elected !!

Bhavananda said...

"the question is does the govt. of the day "side" with someone or does it duty for which it was elected"

The government of the day can SIDE WITH SOMEONE and justify riots by saying "When a big tree falls ..." and kill ZERO rioter; or it can do its DUTY FOR WHICH IT WAS ELECTED, i.e. deploy troops on the ground and kill 200 of the rioters. As a result of the former, 3000 Sikhs die (official number) whereas in the later case 800 Muslims die PLUS 250 Hindus die (official number).

In the end, if you justify killing 3000 Sikhs you become a hero with no criticism at all. Statues are erected, bridges are named, Universities are named after you. Whereas if 800 Muslims die after delayed troop deployment, you become a mass murderer.

Clearly, all men (minorities?) are equal, but some are more equal than others.

M. Patil said...

Suyash Said:

@MPatil...I didn't get the point. What were you trying to say by those two facts?

My Reply:

"There is none more blind than those who refuse to see and none more deaf than those who refuse to hear"
A Sanskrit proverb

Those two facts imply that Rajiv Gandhi was more culpable for the death of 3000 Sikhs than Modi is for the death of 1000 Muslims. Modi Administration tried to stop rioting by killing the rioters, but Rajiv Gandhi Administration did not even bother firing on Congress rioters.

So, Rajiv Gandhi is/was more evil than Modi.

Yes, I would say Congress rioters because Sikhs were killed in Congress ruled states where they had immunity from restrain or prosecution and no where else.

Malavika Patil

Anonymous said...

What an idiot Balaji is ? He talk rubbish, wonder why he is still allowed here. Being communal, fanatic, fascist is better than being gay.

Balaji said...

Kanchanda,

I think you should write on Atalji's views on Hindutva. I have always felt that Hindutva is out-n-out fascism which Atalji never associated himself with. And Sudheendra Kulkarni's very revealing article few weeks ago gives some insight on Atalji's abhorence of Hindutva. It may well happen that Atalji will be the only BJP Prime Minister in the history of this counrty. And its very pertinent to know Atalji's views on Hindutva which may well destroy the BJP and render it completely unelectable. You, having worked closely with Atalji can shed more light on this.

Swabhimaan said...

As long as the line is there, there is nothing wrong with Hindutva. Balaji..you have answered your own questions. Unjustified appeasement should not be tolerated..that is what Hindutva currently means. Yes, there is some hatred as well, but such hatred exists on both sides. Nowhere we have a perfect society in this world. I guess it is you who is sticking to one rigid interpretation of Hindutva and you need to move on. The BJP has already moved on.

Anonymous said...

boss , updates?
and ban the trolls please. they are a pain to read, now that they have made their opinions clear.

Balaji said...

Swabhimaan,

>> there is nothing wrong with Hindutva.

but what is Hindutva?

>> Unjustified appeasement should not be tolerated..that is what Hindutva currently means.

hmm, yet another definition for Hindutva?

Really, even moksha doesn't seem as elusive as the definition for Hindutva. Except Savarkar's definition, ofcourse.

1. Atalji, as recently as 2004, apparently asked, "Yeh Hindutva kya hota hai?"
2. Jaswant on live TV says he doesn't understand what Hindutva is.
3. I have read all four days of sermons by Deendayal Upadhyaya on Integral Humanism. He did not utter the word Hindutva even once.
4. I have read the 'Bunch of Thoughts' by Golwalkar. He only once mentions the word Hindutva. But he was refering to the title of the book 'Hindutva' written by Savarkar. In the same paragraph, Golwalkar ridicules Savarkar's Hindu Mahasabha for practising regressive Hinduism and calls it the communal counterpart of the Muslim League.
5. Nanaji Deshmukh's DRI has this website chitrakoot.org. They explain Integral Humanism in lot of detail and point to practical implementation of that ideology to achieve Gram swaraj. But the word Hindutva is never used in that site.

Surely, Hindutva must be this excellent concept which escaped such 'lesser mortals' like Atalji, Nanaji, Panditji and Guruji!, but you can easily explain. Wow, amazing!

Swabhimaan said...

Hindutva for me is what is defined on the site http://lkadvani.in.

No minority appeasement - why can't it be a part of Hindutva? Why do you want to narrow it down to one or two lines? Because it doesn't suit your definition or interpretation? It is an evolving concept and why do you hesitate to accept this? It may not have been uttered even once by the people you are talking about....but is that enough reason to discard it? How many people understand Integral Humanism? You are fixated on words...when you should be thinking about concepts and ideas. Why can't Gram Swaraj be a part of Hindutva? Even if you talk about India's ancient culture and Ram Rajya...did it not talk about welfare for all masses? Get out of your fixation with words and you will see it yourself. I am sorry if Atalji didn't understand it..I hope some day he does. Advaniji understood it and explained it well. I'm ok with it.

Just as an aside...I find the two words 'Integral Humanism' too intellectual for the masses to understand. Hindutva is much better.

Balaji said...

Swabhiman,

interesting you quote Advani's website.

lkadvani.in has a tab called Philosophy and it clearly and unambiguously mentions Integral Humanism as BJP's ideology.

there is another tab called Issues which among other things has "Cultural Nationalism". There along with such issues as "Indian Muslims" (right, Muslims are an issue!) Hindutva is mentioned.

And curiously Advani uses Samuel Huntington's ideas on US nationalism to define India's cultural nationalism! Incidentally Savarkar himself was accused of blatantly copying Giuseppe Mazzini's ideas and selling it here in India.

Further Advani claims Deendayal Upadhyaya called Hindutva as Bharatiyata. While Panditji may have told this personally to his 'great disciple' Advani, he for some strange reason fails to use the word 'Bharatiyata' in his famous essays on Integral Humanism! Indeed Panditji used neither Hindutva nor Bharatiyata in his most seminal work.

anyway, you might think words are unimportant. But then, Rajnath claims to have been committed to Hindutva all his life! Advani and Joshi claim Hindutva is non-negotiable. And lo and hehold, M G Vaidya challenges us to give up Hindutva! How are we supposed to give up something which Atalji doesn't know what it is? Funny state of affairs.

Balaji said...

And look what Advani has to say to Muslims (i mean on the issue called "Indian Muslims") in his campaign website.

"come out of the trap of the minority mindset and join the national mainstream"
Link

and we expect people to vote for us?! boy!

Swabhimaan said...

Even if the Bhartiyata = Hindutva, or vice versa, I don't see why you have a problem with the H word. Did I say that Integral Humanism should be discarded or that it is not BJP's ideology? No..it is all in your head. I am just not ok with the nomenclature. Irrespective of what Panditji told Advaniji and vice versa, it is the concept and what it is today is what matters. Even if Hindutva is not what Bhartiyata is, I am totally at ease with the Hindutva explained on the website.

One should learn to quote words out of context from you. Muslims are an issue! You are on Mars if you don't recognize and accept that not all people are the same. I see that you would be rallying with the Mullahs (here I am not referring to all Muslims) who love to take away education from Muslim girls and would like to have more of Shah Banos..and we should not have an issue with any of this. When the Muslim majority of a certain region asks for separation in the name of Islam and drives out the minority of that region.. that is not an issue ? Which world do you live in?

Yes, we expect people to vote for us because Hindutva is against this nonsense. Please do not malign Hindutva for the sake of your false illusions.


Good things should be appreciated and copied...what is wrong with that?

For your kind information these are mentioned under issues section not because these are issues for the BJP but have been made issues by the opposition, media and kind 'supporters' like you.

There is nothing wrong with the words 'minority mindset'. The Congress cultivated this mindset and it is the truth. You can be starry eyed like Nehru and live in denial or propagate falsehood. (you know the best what your real intentions are) Hindutva believers wouldn't like to do so.

Balaji said...

hmm ... this is precisely the problem I'm trying to address. people are free to uphold Hindutva. but I think they will be more at home in Hindu Mahasabha or perhaps Shiv Sena than the BJP.

and yes, calling one-sixth of your electorate as living in a trap and asking them to come to national mainstream (as opposed to what? a side canal they are in now?) is an excellent way to seek their votes.

Swabhimaan said...

no...actually telling them to study in madrasas with no modern education would be the best way to tell them to join the national mainstream.If that is what you would like the national mainstream to look like...why don't you join them?

Why are you getting frustrated? Did I ever tell you whether people like you should stay with the BJP or not? or is it that your true colors are showing now? Ok tell me frankly..are you not the person who kept asking the BJP to 'elect' a Muslim President or something?


You know what.. truly i resisted this temptation earlier..i don't resort to this kind of dialogue..but people like you would be much more at home with the Congress instead of spending (in fact wasting) your time here. You can be a true leader there..and people will eat out of your hands in that camp. Not that I don't doubt your loyalties.

Kanchan Gupta said...

Balaji: You just hijacked the debate and deviated it from its goal. I guess that was your purpose. I write this more in despair than in anger. Pity.

Balaji said...

Kanchanda,

hmm...

well, didn't you mention Hindutva in your post? let me quote you your quotes.

>> "Ideology shall continue to enjoy primacy and Hindutva shall remain the guiding force."

>> Second, there is no clarity as yet on either ideology or Hindutva.

>> The Indian people’s “way of life” has nothing to do with politics or political campaigns to secure state power. If Hindutva is only what the Supreme Court thinks it is, then it should not be the political creed of any party, least of all the BJP.

>> The political resolution bizarrely equates Hinduism with Hindutva. This was best avoided. Hinduism is about faith, which is by definition narrow and exclusive. Hindutva is about political mobilisation, which has to be inclusive and all-embracing.

>> It defines Indianness or Bharatiyata. It is the cornerstone of cultural nationalism, the BJP's USP.

>> Hindtuva needs to be seen as a concept, an idea, the core of the party's belief and the base of its political positioning.

>> My own view is that Muslims will never vote (or vote substantially) for the BJP.

************

well, anyway the point is, I think many votaries of Hindutva, including you unfortunately, have mistakenly being associated with the wrong party. BJP is not the political force of militant Hinduism. or atleast thats not what Atalji and Panditji envisioned.

you are [wrongly] accusing me of hijacking your debate. I'm pointing to you that people like you have hijacked our party!

Bhavananda said...

Kanchan da,
The problem is not just Balaji and his comments. I think there's a lot we Hindus/Hindutva supporters can learn from debating Balaji.

For example, we need to learn to restrain ourselves - a common problem with us. Every now and then some BJP leader will end up in front of TV cameras, especially before May 16th, and look totally stupid in a mindless debate with Manish Tewari (Congress), Ram Guha (secular) and another TV host (Rajdeep or Barkha types). BUT HE WON'T LEARN. Next Sunday he'll be back in another studio to fight with another troll, knowing fully the pointlessness of the debate; TV hosts will always, along with others, beat him to a pulp.

So, the question is why does he keep talking to the ELM knowing well what will happen? FOR EXACTLY THE SAME REASON WE CANNOT RESTRAIN OURSELVES FROM TALKING TO BALAJI, knowing well how pointless the debate is; especially after I (and Sudhir) pointed out before the blog is going to be hijacked by debating Balaji.

As a corollary, one may also want to ask a more broader question: How come Hindus still believe in this ASYMMETRIC secularism after 800 yrs of persecuation? How do Bengalis, after being driven out of their ancestral homeland, are so oblivious to Bangladeshi infiltration (remember epar-Bangla-opar-Bangla comments by Indrajit Gupta of CPI)? The Jews learnt their lesson in '47, but will the Hindus ever learn anything?

Balaji said...

yup, debating is pointless. becos Hindu fundamentalists have been trying to put the 'inclusive' lipstick on the 'Hindutva' pig and sell it has the 'Bharatiyata' cow. except that no one is convinced.

1. Mukherjee, Guruji, Panditji and Nanaji rejected it when Savarkar gave it to them.
2. Atalji and Jaswantji didn't buy it when Advani sold it.
3. Media didn't buy it from Modi.

and most importantly people of this country are in no mood to even listen to Hindutvawadi's let alone buy their pig ..err.. cow.

and the sorry state of the BJP is that despite having an ideology, [namely 'Integral Humanism' whose principle advocate took us to power twice in 98 and 99], every Tom, Dick and Harry defines 'Hindutva' to us and says that ought be our ideology!

Sudhir said...

Kanchanda,

You have despaired too soon. This was nothing. I and other commentators on offstumped message board have experienced the worst. You have not yet seen the expletives like "RSS stands for Brahmainism" "Ramayana is racist" "Ram was aryan suppression on Dravidians" I was anxiously waiting for Balaji to come out with his usual rhetoric. (You disappoint me Balaji)

mpanj said...

Balaji said:

“I stand by point that Modi's development record on Social sectors is not upto the mark”

Balaji, opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one.

Unless you comeback with some facts to support your "Modi’s development record on Social sectors is not upto the mark" opinion, it isn’t worth the leftover tresses from Sushmaji’s tonsured head.

Note: I have the utmost respect for Sushmaji, but please don’t compare her to NaMo.

NaMo is a rare find.

We will not allow you repeat your baseless allegations against him a 1000 times hoping these lies will eventually stick if left uncontested.

Come back with facts and we have a debate. Pull these allegations out of thin air or any part of your anatomy and you are nothing but a leftist troll, no better than Sitaram ‘China never attacked India’ Yechuri.

Amazing that you quote Vir Singhvi as a source for the ‘Mass Murderer’ tag.

Isnt this the same traitor that only a few months back, suggested (vociferously) that India should surrender Kashmir to Pakistan.

Try as you may Balaji, you are nothing but a leftist ‘Global Citizen’.

One last point. You’re not the only one who has campaigned for the BJP or participated in elections. Its just that others on this forum don’t feel the need to brandish their credentials to prove their point. Our facts, our research are sufficient.

mpanj said...

Folks,

as Bhavananda pointed out, as much as we dislike Balaji's flame throwing he does serve as a proxy for the Barkhas and Sirdesais.

As we enter the most important phase of India's post independence history, we’ll have to contend with these opinion makers and their Goebbelsian tactics.

We must allow Balaji a free reign. His asinine arguments are perfect to help prepare us for the battles ahead.

There is an old saying in politics “If you’re explaining, you’re loosing”.

BJP and NaMo’s supporters in particular, have been explaining for far too long.

I remember the onset of the RJB agitation and how at every step BJP and the Sangh were setting the agenda. Ofcourse the Balaji Brigade of Barkha, Rajdeep, etc. was absent, but it was absolutely amazing how at every juncture, Congress was cornered. And Congress was doing the explaining.

Today we have to explain the likes of Muthalik, whereas the media gives Congress a pass on MNS, on Sachar Committee, on 26/11.

Finally, the problem with BJP is not Hindutva.

It is the cynical use of Hindutva to gain votes.

Every election, BJP remembers Hindutva and what the public has come to associate Hindutva with – Ram Janmabhoomi, nationalism, Article 370, etc.

And after each election BJP uses the crutch of coalition politics and shoves Hindutva under the carpet.

I say stick with Hindutva (sans the violence) and we have the makings of an ideological movement that will bring us back to power.

That Hindutva is alive and kicking. Last year’s Amarnath Yatra agitation proves it.

I have never seen ordinary Congress/BJP voters this agitated, over the state of their religious identity, since the RJB movement.

The Hindutva heart beats strong. It needs a leader that can occupy it with grace, fortitude, courage and wisdom.

We have just such a leader. Can we support and cherish this latter day Shivaji or will we allow the likes of Balaji Dutt to devour another luminous son of Mother India.

Bhavananda said...

@mpanj
I agree with most of what you said, especially your logic that Hindutva is a great issue; except that BJP has repeatedly dumped it for sake of power.

However, I wanted to add something to your last comment: - "We will not allow you repeat your baseless allegations against him a 1000 times hoping these lies will eventually stick if left uncontested"
Unfortunately when it comes to the leftwing media, the TRUTH is invariably constructed by REPEATED ASSERTIONS. So, Uniform civil code may be a constitutional requirement (verified by the Supreme court) but by repeated assertion, the ELM has converted it into a Hindutva issue.
Most of these so-called Hindutva issues have really nothing to do with either BJP (like Ram Sene) or with Hindus in general (like Art. 370), practically anything the BJP says today is a Hindutva issue.

As I've pointed out previously and you have rightly said, unless the Hindus can disengage themselves from the obvious anti-Hindu drivel that goes in the ELM in the name of debate, we will continue to suffer.

Swabhimaan said...

@mpanj,

I agree with you completely. We need a movement to strengthen Hindutva and disseminate correct, unbiased & factual information concerning Hindutva issues among the masses. They will respond to it. Even the 'global' citizens will. I say this because I have experienced this.

Right Angle said...

Balaji often quotes as "People of india rejected"..
This is a clever technique used particularly by the communist fascists & marxists dadas..

Let them first show before us the "People of India"..

Right Angle said...

Kanchan.. one thing that we learn from balaji's debacle is that we need to focus more on to arrive at an accurate definition of hindutva..

So far, the BJP and RSS are harping on only philosophical description, like "inclusiveness", "way of life" etc..

But what one has to do as part of hindutva?

I think, i have already expressed my point in the previous post on what is hindutva..
In short, hindutva is a movement to imbibe the virtues of ruling, practiced and followed by numerous rajyams of our ancient india.. (mainly the empires before the barbaric muslim invasion)

Hindutva is a movement to understand the purpose of the social setup of our native empires, and find out what are all, and how they are all could be implemented in the present days, to achieve the welfare of the subjects.

So, within this framework, the following points might be the action points for hindutva..

1. Preserving the sanctity of the temples, through hygiene, unobstructed spiritual and ritual practices.

2. Establishing harmony b/w different jaatis of hinduism. As such, the malicious attempts of the christian missionaries, to project caste as evil is to be opposed tooth and nail. Almost all the jaatis served a fundamental purpose to the society.

ofcourse, on reading this point, balaji type of persons will come and bark like "Hindutva upholds and promotes casteism".
But we have to prepare ourselves to expose their manipulative design.

3. Promote temple arts like bharatanatyam, in a modern way. We should bring back the practice of performing bharatanatyam, carnatic sangeetham in temples.

4. Work towards freeing temples from government clutch. To setup an independant body that is accountable to the people for maintaining temples. This system should have greater inclusion of local people to participate in temple affairs.

5. As a party, BJP should strive towards developing intellectual ability on how to rule our people. BJP can learn about various practices prescribed and followed in ancient india, and try to implement those virtues that is applicable to modern india.

6. As suggested by TVR Shenoy, hindu rate of tax can be followed.

7. Hindu United Family should be given a big uplift to promote collective living and to preserve joint families.
Extreme Individualism is doing most harm to hindu society.

8. Promoting annadhanams in temples in a big way, atleast in BJP ruled states.

9. Adopting and promoting all ancient vedic yagnas and homams that are done for the welfare of the society. WHy should be apologetic about performing a homam that prays for social welfare?

10. Establishing contacts with various spiritual organisations and movements. And we need to assist them in protecting them from various hurdles created by marxists and anti-hindu sycophants.


These are some of the points that i could point out now.

I want you to write a separate post on how practical hindutva is, so that we can clarify ourselves on most of the points.

Right Angle said...

And i believe, the following articles by arun shourie, on climate change is also a hindutva.. the need of a sustained & inclusive growth..


http://www.indianexpress.com/news/changing-course-on-climate/484211/0

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/theres-more-to-life-than-gdp/484995/0

Right Angle said...

Also, providing free education to all, free medical care to all, are also part of hindutva, because, it has been advocated in our age old rajdharma..

Today, Hindutva is a perfect remedy for heinous commercialisation of education and healthcare..

Swabhimaan said...

@Right Angle, you are going the Right way!

Right Angle said...

swabhiman,

THanks.. the rightist are the right people, with right nationalistic views.. and the leftist are the wrong people..

we should have such strong confidence in debunking the leftists..

No need to mention the centrists.. they are just power mongers, without any principles..

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rahul said...

bjp has lost it all. let me tell u all once we had 20 states with us now just 10.its not enough bcoz 2 be on top we need to have more than 18 odd states. another thing in places like kerela the hindu votes are divided in cong or cpm.we need to capitalise on them.plz remove bjps media cell leaders i feel they are good for nothing . bring in leaders like jaitley or ananth kumar on whom the bjp can rely on.even till date more than 70% of indians are hindus one thing we need to remember its not the muslims its our own hindus who made us to loose.congress stole our middle class agenda & we could do nothing else.sorry to say but in next 10 years i can hardly see bjp comeback to power. remove old leaders bring in the ones.play caste politics or anything bcoz remeber the congress did the same in 2004 elections. do everything on grassroots one day or the other people would come to know your works and will vote you to power.remember one thing "when any gandhi came in they swept the elections by different slogan "garibi ya garibao ko hatao "looks same or "aam aadmi ka ssath cong ke sath"rubbish slogans " dont worry rgandhis true colour is about to come.we need to hold our ground remove old leaders in ap,tn,kerala,asssam bring the new ones.try to reunite with tdp aidmk,bjd,rnld,etc,,,,,,,,,,,,
best of luck but future looks gloomy